[John Kirk]

I don't want to offend my wife (especially the day before Valentine's Day) but I think that there is a correlation between this topic and the topic of breast augmentation.  If it/they look good and are appreciated, what does it matter if it/they are real or fake?  It's all in the eye of the beholder.

The difference is how it feels when you play them.

[TEPaul]

Melvyn:

What if a very large slice of golfers actually prefer golf courses that do not fit in naturally with their surrounding area? If that's true, would you admit to their usefulness even despite your own personal opinions about what all golf courses should be?

We should all be at least willing to admit that perhaps a good many golfers actually like golf courses and golf architecture that represents some artistic creation of man even if it looks artificial.

To me this is all part and parcel of the "Big World" theory that I think applies to golf course architecture as it probably applies to any other art form. In other words if there are vastly varying TASTES out there the art form should accommodate all of them, and obviously that should include extreme naturalism too.

[Jeff Doerr]

Can golf course design be equated in some way to the form and function of clothing fashion?

Are some looking for the blue blazer with a crisp dry cleaned white shirt (bunker sand)?
Do others look for the athletic and muscular UnderArmor look?
Do others opt for broken in blue jeans and a leather jacket?
Do others want Mossy Oak camo?

My preferences run to all of those depending on the day and the setting. No camo in my closet and my body does not do the UnderArmor thing well, but I wish it still did! Maybe that's why golfers want to play the back tees at a course with a 150 slope.

[Kirk Gill]

I love a good philosophical thread.

Stupid questions: Are humans and all their creations unnatural? If termites build a huge mound to live in, is that unnatural? Where exactly is the line between a natural construct and an artificial one? For humans to live in a "state of nature" do we all need to live in caves? Is it more natural to live in a hut than in a house made of stone? Can you really "get back to nature" by driving somewhere in an automobile, sleeping in a tent made of nylon, catching fish with a fiberglass rod, cooking them in a cast-iron pan? If a golf course is carved out of the ground using horse-drawn scoops and teams of men with shovels, is that course inherently more natural than one built with bulldozers? Is it more natural to design a course with a pencil and paper than on a computer?

[Norbert P]

Felix Unger -  "It's not spaghetti. It's linguini." 

Oscar throws it against the wall.

Oscar Madison  "Now it's garbage."



In this scenerio, the organic, naturalness of the food did not fit in well with the clean environment.

[BCrosby]

... Oddly, Carne is one of the places that blew me away.  I couldn't believe that the fundamental characteristics of the land could be left intact and still provide such a thrilling canvas that was just about playable (unlike Ballybunion Cashen).  In this case I definitely think what the archie didn't do was as important as what he did do.  In other words, for an archie to impart a strong emotional experience to me he will will have to rely very heavily on what mother nature gives him...

Sean -

Your visceral (?) response to natural landforms is exactly right. There is something very special about the interaction. It goes to the heart of why "natural" courses seem to matter to so many people. There is more going on than just posting a score when you play those sorts of courses.

The irony here is that everything about such courses can be designed. I happily buy into what I've called the "naturalism conceit". I don't mind for an instant being fooled by an architect into thinking I'm playing on natural landforms. In fact, I encourage them to do so. 

Bob

 

[Sean_A]

... Oddly, Carne is one of the places that blew me away.  I couldn't believe that the fundamental characteristics of the land could be left intact and still provide such a thrilling canvas that was just about playable (unlike Ballybunion Cashen).  In this case I definitely think what the archie didn't do was as important as what he did do.  In other words, for an archie to impart a strong emotional experience to me he will will have to rely very heavily on what mother nature gives him...

Sean -

Your visceral (?) response to natural landforms is exactly right. There is something very special about the interaction. It goes to the heart of why "natural" courses seem to matter to so many people. There is more going on than just posting a score when you play those sorts of courses.

The irony here is that everything about such courses can be designed. I happily buy into what I've called the "naturalism conceit". I don't mind for an instant being fooled by an architect into thinking I'm playing on natural landforms. In fact, I encourage them to do so. 

Bob

 

Bob

The only problem with creating this stuff is that it often fails to hit the mark or if it is spot on then the green fee is often out of control.  Playing on a good natural canvas affords the best opportunity for treating the experience as what it is - just a game.  Somehow, when the ordeal gets lifted to playing a top whatever by the top whoever,  the day is a bit diminished.  Thats not to say that an archie is at fault, but I never claimed that golf was even close to being all about the architecture.  There is an intangible hint of a sense of wonderful that is different for each and everyone of us.

Ciao 

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

I disliked Carne for precisely the same reasons you liked it.  There are only a handful of earthmoving pieces there, but they are not well done, particularly in the 17th and 18th fairways.  For a few pennies more they could have pushed more dirt and made those alterations invisible.

[BCrosby]

Sean -

My point is that "natural" courses need not be truly "natural". They can and often are built. That end state ought to be an important goal of the architect. Because the additional dimension that such courses afford is important.

And as TD notes above, what is natural can be made to appear more natural with a little assistance.

Bob

[Sean_A]

Sean -

My point is that "natural" courses need not be truly "natural". They can and often are built. That end state ought to be an important goal of the architect. Because the additional dimension that such courses afford is important.

And as TD notes above, what is natural can be made to appear more natural with a little assistance.

Bob

Bob

I don't know how it is possible to make something natural appear more natural with the help of man.  Give me an example.  I take your point about unnatural appearing natural.  Colt was generally a master of this.  Its why I wonder what happened at Burnham's 1st hole.  I know Colt called for a gap to be created in a the dune, but usually he was a bit more subtle and made things make sense.  Even with time, the gap in Burnham's 1st fairway looks wierd.

In the case of Carne its a difficult call to make and I think Tom is perhaps being a bit harsh with his judgement.  First off, Carne was built on a shoestring and it may well have been that all the money/free labour available was spent.  Secondly, the course is still quite young and it will naturalize a bit over time.  In any case, some of the dune formations at Carne are so wild that one could be forgiven for thinking they are not natural. 

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob, Sean - your exchange gets to the heart of this for me. I ping-pong back and forth between your two views. A while after I joined the discussion board, I posted on having confused minimalism with naturalism, and noting that what moved me most was the 'freedom' of naturalism. A very knowledgeable poster replied that the one question was whether anything 'manufactured' could ever fully capture the essence of the naturalism I sought. I'm still not sure of the answer...but I think it's a question worth asking over and over again, and in various different ways (even without reference to lower costs of construction and more minimal maintenance practices). I think that, every once in a rare while, looking at questions in a black and white way helps to bring a little more understanding of the grey areas in between. 

Peter     

[Melvyn Morrow]

All course are built, even the early ones, to my mind it’s a question of what do you have to destroy to achieve a natural course for that ultimate goal. But if you change things -  think very, very carefully before doing so because in the majority of cases its hard to turn the clock back. I have no problem with those who prefer to move away from the original game.

Every generation of my family from the early 1840’s have been playing golf – the history of the game is in our blood. My father came from St Andrews and learnt to play on the Old Course, his father lived and played at St Andrews, my great grandfather was James Hunter co-founder of Royal Quebec G C and its first champion as well as being a first class golfer in Scotland and married to Old Tom’s daughter. Then there is Young Tom and of course Old Tom.  Yes, golf is in my blood, it’s a beautiful and most  satisfying game that can be enjoyed alone, with friends or in a competition. I care for golf, its future, which I see moving away from its original concepts. Money, big money talks, millions are spent designing super courses with all the facilities – soon if we are not careful we may all be playing on our screens at home, as courses become to expensive to create or maintain, their carbon foot print being no longer acceptable. This could be the ultimate goal.

I have mentioned on a few previous occasions that I am of the old school, I hate buggies and their super tarmac highways running adjacent to a course, the brilliant kept and manicured fairways – this is not progress, its pure corruption of the game of golf.  It may be the modern way to play but it’s not my way.

I am only a lone voice in the wilderness, I enjoy playing on this more natural land. Play the super courses, but if we end up with Astroturf fairways/greens you have only yourself to blame. Having said all that I don’t suppose for one minute that our views are really that far apart.

 I will not apologise for my passion – but when you come over don’t just settle for the Old / New Courses or Royal Dornoch, try the other courses from Askernish through to Tain, Bridge of Allan, Warkworth, Newtonmore, St Michaels (Leuchars), Tarland, Strathpeffer, Rosapenna, Pwllhelie (Wales), Crieff, Kirby Muxloe (England) and Royal North Devon to name but a few. 

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

I've been called harsh before for criticizing Carne -- perhaps it was you.  But, once the decision was made that the only way to play golf over a couple of those holes was to alter the landscape -- in just one or two spots on the whole course -- don't you think they should have done a better job?  Or are you telling me those shelves in the fairway on 17 are natural?  I would forgive it entirely in that case, but I don't believe it's true.  (Perhaps then you'll tell me that the shelf on 17 at Pennard is natural, too ... although it bothers me much less.)

Architects always cry "budget" about such issues [although in this case it is you and not Eddie Hackett making the case], but there is really hardly any extra money involved.  All we're talking about is running a dozer for an extra day or three in order to make the work appear more natural.  I'd be willing to bet they rented the dozer by the month, so it's down to a few hundred dollars for the fuel and the shaper.  In truth, they probably didn't have a real shaper -- the work was done by someone inexperienced and he needed more time to get it right.

[Joe Hancock]

"My brain hurts!"

-DP Gumby

[Brendan Dolan]

Melvyn,
That is some very cool stuff on Askernish Golf Club website.  Thanks for sharing.  Put me down in the group that perfers natural looking golf course.  There is just something about playing a course that blends in beautifully with its natural surroundings that hieghtens my enjoyment of the game.  Yes I can have a great deal of fun on a course that is heavily shaped, but on a course that is one with its surroundings I not only have fun but am also inspired by the experience.

Brendan      

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe H -- maybe this might help.

Sundance: What's your idea this time?
Butch: Bolivia.
Sundance: What's Bolivia?
Butch: Bolivia. That's a country, stupid! In Central or South America, one or the other.
Sundance: Why don't we just go to Mexico instead?
Butch: 'Cause all they got in Mexico is sweat and there's too much of that here. Look, if we'd been in business during the California Gold Rush, where would we have gone? California - right?
Sundance: Right.
Butch: So when I say Bolivia, you just think California. You wouldn't believe what they're finding in the ground down there. They're just fallin' into it. Silver mines, gold mines, tin mines, payrolls so heavy we'd strain ourselves stealin' 'em.
Sundance: (chuckling) You just keep thinkin', Butch. That's what you're good at.
Butch: Boy, I got vision, and the rest of the world wears bifocals.

It's an analogy, Joe.  An a-n-a-l-o-g-y 

[TEPaul]

"Who ARE those guys?"

[TEPaul]

Butch:
"What do you want in a girl, Sundance?"

Sundance:
"Aaah, I'm not picky---just as long as she's sweet, and good-looking, and a good cook, and...., I'm not picky."

And shortly after that the movie-going world was treated, once again, to the earth-shattering visage of Katherine Ross.

When the camera cut for the first time to the face of Katherine Ross in The Graduate, I swear to God, an entire generation of movie-going young men were never the same again, including me.

It was one of the few times in movie history that something totally non-verbal on the screen got a massive audial reaction from the audience.

And furthermore, if you want to see really great non-verbal acting catch about the last two seconds Katherine Ross's face is onscreen as she sat in the back of that bus in her wedding dress. Her expression absolutely says it all.

[Peter Pallotta]

Nice, Tom!

A real natural beauty that Katherine Ross, wasn't she?

I didn't catch "The Graduate" when it first came out. But when I did, as striking as Katherine Ross was, I had an even more lasting impression -- that of Anne Bancroft in profile, one leg drawn up, smiling slyly as she says "Do you WANT me to seduce you, Benjamin, is that it?".

Wow. And since I knew even back then that she was married to Mel Brooks, I could figure that a guy like me had a shot...sort of

Another natural beauty she was - Anna Italiano, from Brooklyn, New York.

Peter 

[TEPaul]

"A real natural beauty that Katherine Ross, wasn't she?"

WELL, Peter, beautiful she most definitely was, but seeing as where this discussion is going on what "natural" REALLY is I'm not that sure I could speak that intelligently to how natural she was. But I'll tell you one thing for sure, I would've loved to have the opportunity back then to check out about every last inch of her to see how natural she was!

[TEPaul]

Peter:

Did you ever get the opportunity to check out Anne Bancroft's REAL accent?

It was the damndest thing you ever heard. Most people just couldn't believe it was Anne Bancroft.

Maybe you have a lot to learn about those old movie icons. Like I bet you never knew Burt Lancaster was gay, did you?  

Yep, gay as could be, but I'll tell you one thing about him from seeing a fair amount of him in the Tunney campaign----he was very natural! Yep, very down to earth and natural. He was a great guy.


"....to get your minds off of Katherine Ross (who wasn't even as hot as Anne Bancroft, anyway)?"

Shivas:

Nothing will ever get my mind off Katherine Ross in that GRADUATE scene. And maybe she wasn't as hot as Anne Brancroft. All Katherine Ross was, was about the most drop-dead gorgeous looking thing any of us had EVER seen!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Shivas

This is what I'm talking about - you can't tell anymore, but I can - her hair is NOT Natural but after a few drinks I know a few Guys who would like her as their ultimate goal!

[TEPaul]

Jim Engh:

I'm sorry about this. Do you see what your thread on "NATURAL" has done? It was inevitable amigo, just inevitable!

But your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to someday, somewhere, create a golf hole that mimics the beauty of Katherine Ross in The Graduate.

Do you think you can pull that off pal?

Nope, nope, NOPE, nah, nah, nah, I don't even want to talk about it.

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

It's meretricous allure in its worst and most tawdry form!

Give me Katherine Ross any day.

Like Henry Higgins, I'm a kind and thougthful and sensitive man, the kind who never could and never would, and....

[Joe Hancock]

"Tawdry" ...is that a word I can use in discussion somehow when I take my wife out for Valentines dinner? I hope so, because it sounds cool.......

Joe

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