[Sean_A]

Incidentally, I have a homework assignment for the new World Atlas of Golf to do short bios of the 8-10 greatest Golden Age architects, and to include in a box their most important works -- hopefully 8-10 courses instead of 4-5.  So there are two sets of arguments to have.

I think I've got to include Colt, MacKenzie, Alison (because of his influence in Japan and even South Africa), Ross, Simpson (because of his influence in Europe), Macdonald, Flynn, Tillinghast and Stanley Thompson.  Don't know if I will dare to pick a tenth man from Thomas/Travis/Raynor/et al.  But if any of the experts want to email me a list of the most influential works by their man, it would be much appreciated.

I do think every architect's first course should be included as among their most influential; for a couple I am not sure where it is.  What was Stanley Thompson's first work?  Or Tom Simpson's?

Tom

It would seem that your angle includes influence as a measure of greatness, but that you haven't included Park Jr.  I don't have any idea to be honest, but I would have thought that Park Jr would have at least a great an impact as either Alison or Simpson. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

You are right, I am always forgetting Willie Park Jr., which is really bad form considering our friend Archie Baird's wife is a Park.

[Chris_Blakely]

Devereux Emmet:

Leatherstocking
Wee Burn
Belmont Hills
St. Marys
Huntington (Have not played)
McGegor Links (?Not sure with the recent home invasion)

[Jeff_Brauer]

To quote RTJ (who stole it from FLW)

"My next four......"

[Kyle Henderson]

I do think every architect's first course should be included as among their most influential; for a couple I am not sure where it is.  What was Stanley Thompson's first work?  Or Tom Simpson's?

I'm a little surprised by that comment. Isn't High Pointe your first solo design? Do you really consider that to be among the most influential of your works?

[Kyle Henderson]

Ted Robinson 

Sahalee
Tijeras creek
Tokatee
Tustin Ranch

I think Robinson courses should be ranked by the number of manmade waterfalls they contain.

By that measure, from personal experience, I have to submit:

Rio Vista
Brentwood CC (Creek & Hill 9s)
Canyon Lakes

I would put Rancho Murieta South course on that list over Tijeras, good back nine but bland front. Also North Ranch orig. 18 in Thous. Oaks over Tustin Ranch. I have never seen Tokatee, but Robinson Ranch Mountain is very good.

Canyon Lakes? I hope that was tonge in cheek.

The whole thing was tongue in cheek. I don't relate concrete waterways to good architecture, at least not of the golf variety.

[Tim Leahy]

Kyle, I agree with you on some of TRob's "freeway" style designs  but I do believe the courses I chose were some of his more natural designs much like the back nine at Tijeras.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I do think every architect's first course should be included as among their most influential; for a couple I am not sure where it is.  What was Stanley Thompson's first work?  Or Tom Simpson's?

I'm a little surprised by that comment. Isn't High Pointe your first solo design? Do you really consider that to be among the most influential of your works?

Every journey begins with a single step, no?

[Lester George]

Tom,

I would recommend that you put Kasumigaseki on the Colt & Allison list.  It is absolutely one of their best IMHO.  Here is the link:

http://www.kasumigasekicc.or.jp/

 

Lester

[Jeff_Brauer]

To me, C and A might have their courses more closely bunched in quality than a lot of other gca's, but I could be wrong.  Seems like they were always solid, but didn't have the pure number of spectacular sites others had.   

[JMorgan]

Shout out for Tom Dunn ... anyone? 

[Greg Clark]

Tom,

I'm interested in which other 2 Dye courses you would add to Teeth of the Dog and The Golf Club.  Thoughts?

[JMorgan]

How bout a stab at Fowler? 

I have to believe that Eastward Ho! is on the list, but I could be wrong and it may just be wishful thinking.  It might surprise folks, but my preference is for Beau Desert over any Fowler course I have seen.   

If Cornish and Whitten are to be believed then courses such as

Ganton, Broadstone, Lytham, Cruden Bay, Aberdovey & Southerndown are in with a shout - though I doubt any of these could fairly be called a Fowler course. 

This leaves the Waltons, Berkshires & Westward Ho!  I don't believe WHo! is in the class of the others, but I can understand my notions being disputed.  Personally, I would plug for the Red (certainly) and probably the Blue over either WH course. 

I spose this makes it

Beau Desert
Eastward Ho!(?)
Berkshire Red & Blue

If not Eastward Ho! then I cast my vote for WH New. 

Ciao

How 'bout East Devon?  Probably add that to the Ganton et al. list but could be considered.

Anyone play Bull Bay in Anglesey?

Saunton (East more than West) too?  Will the judges take that?

Sean, if you talk to anyone at Lytham I think they'd say it's mostly Colt on top of the original George Lowe lay-out.

[Bill Hagel]

Bill,

While there isn't any archival evidence to support the attribution, Phoenixville CC's nine-hole course is attributed to Hugh Wilson. 

I think it is fair to say that Merion East's current iteration is as much Flynn as it is Wilson.  Both David Gordon (Wm. Gordon's son) and Flynn's daughter maintain that Flynn designed the West Course with Wilson and his committee having input and final say.

Cobb's Creek seemingly was designed by committee as well with Smith, Crump and Meehan involved to varying degrees.

Seaview's Bay course was laid out by Wilson with bunkers subsequently designed by Ross.  Given the development of that course on swamp and marsh lands, Wilson sought the advice of Piper and Oakley on agronomic issues.  It wouldn't surprise me if it is discovered that Flynn assisted in the construction, which must have proved difficult.  Perhaps this earlier effort to build a course on newly created land influenced  Macdonald and Raynor at Lido and likely Flynn at Indian Creek.

Wayne

I agree with everything you wrote, but I'm just trying to give Uncle Hughie some props.  I mean the poor guy died in his prime, lets keep him on the board. 

[Jim Franklin]

Tom -

I hope you pick Baltimore CC (east) for one of Tillie's top 8-10. In your Confidential it didn't sound like it was one of your favorites. I am not sure if you have seen it recently, but if you ever stop in to see your Beechtree track, please stop by and see Five Farms as well. I believe you will like it more this time around. As for me, my top 8 Tillinghast would be:

San Francisco
Winged Foot (W)
Baltimore CC (E)
Bethpage Black
Quaker Ridge
Winged Foot (E)
Somerset Hills
Ridgewood

[JMorgan]

Incidentally, I have a homework assignment for the new World Atlas of Golf to do short bios of the 8-10 greatest Golden Age architects, and to include in a box their most important works -- hopefully 8-10 courses instead of 4-5.  So there are two sets of arguments to have.

I think I've got to include Colt, MacKenzie, Alison (because of his influence in Japan and even South Africa), Ross, Simpson (because of his influence in Europe), Macdonald, Flynn, Tillinghast and Stanley Thompson.  Don't know if I will dare to pick a tenth man from Thomas/Travis/Raynor/et al.  But if any of the experts want to email me a list of the most influential works by their man, it would be much appreciated.

I do think every architect's first course should be included as among their most influential; for a couple I am not sure where it is.  What was Stanley Thompson's first work?  Or Tom Simpson's?

Tom,

I think if you're going to include Alison then you also must include Raynor.  With that in mind, I'd just include Alison in the context of Colt (and Raynor with Macdonald), and add both Travis and Thomas -- if you've got to stick with ten. 

[Kalen Braley]

I propose the following for Robert Muir Graves:

Sea Ranch
Port Ludlow
Quail Lodge
Blue Rock - East

[Tom_Doak]

Dr. Morgan:

I'm including Alison mostly because the book is The WORLD Atlas of Golf, and Alison introduced great golf architecture to Japan and to South Africa, as well as his work in Europe and in America.  (Raynor introduced it to the cousins of the members of Macdonald's courses.)  I understand your point, but if you don't include Alison, do you not include MacKenzie either? 

Lester:

I've been to Kasumigaseki but it sounds as though you liked it more than I did.  I certainly liked Hirono and Kawana better, and Naruo equally as much.

Greg:

I'll stay out of the Pete Dye list because he is around to judge for himself.  I will only say I am not as fond of his more recent work as he is.

[Lester George]

Tom,

I must admit I'm partial to it because it is the first golf course I ever spent any time on and was probably the genesis of my interest in the profession.

 My father was the club president (American Membership) in 1966.  He arranged for Jack, Arnold and Gary to play their practice round there before they filmed their "Big Three" episode in 66.  I still have the scorecard. 

I like Hirono as well, which is generally regarded the best in Japan.  Unless you throw in my course in Hiroshima, which I am very partial to.

Lester

[Tom_Doak]

Lester:

They really let an American golf course architect design a course in Hiroshima?

[JMorgan]

Dr. Morgan:

I'm including Alison mostly because the book is The WORLD Atlas of Golf, and Alison introduced great golf architecture to Japan and to South Africa, as well as his work in Europe and in America.  (Raynor introduced it to the cousins of the members of Macdonald's courses.)  I understand your point, but if you don't include Alison, do you not include MacKenzie either? 

Tom, I agree with you on Raynor but I don't follow on the last question ... are you making the comparison between MacKenzie and Alison because they both worked with Colt?  No doubt Alison deserves a lot of credit for being the man around the globe for Colt & Co., esp. in Japan.  But why would one consider his work separate and apart from Colt and equally as significant to the world as MacKenzie?  Plus -- thinking about the atlas readership and not gca geeks like us -- if it's for leaving out the work of other guys with significant, singular Golden Age bodies of work like Thomas or Travis? 

[Tom_Doak]

James:

Yes, my note on MacKenzie was based on the fact that both he and Alison sprung from Colt.  Maxwell partly sprung from MacKenzie, but he built a bigger number of noteworthy courses than Thomas or Travis.  I'm comfortable with the nine I picked but I really have a problem picking a tenth man, partly because it gets to a round number.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lester:

They really let an American golf course architect design a course in Hiroshima?

I would be afraid of a negative review. I mean, if a local reviewer in Nashville called Opryland "The biggest bust seen here since Dolly Parton.......   I can only wonder if a poorly American designed course in Hiroshima would be called "the second biggest bomb......"

Sorry, but leave it to me to see the (insensitive) comic potential in almost any situation!

[David Stamm]

I propose the following for Robert Muir Graves:

Sea Ranch
Port Ludlow
Quail Lodge
Blue Rock - East

 Kalen, what about La Purisima?

[Sean_A]

How bout a stab at Fowler? 

I have to believe that Eastward Ho! is on the list, but I could be wrong and it may just be wishful thinking.  It might surprise folks, but my preference is for Beau Desert over any Fowler course I have seen.   

If Cornish and Whitten are to be believed then courses such as

Ganton, Broadstone, Lytham, Cruden Bay, Aberdovey & Southerndown are in with a shout - though I doubt any of these could fairly be called a Fowler course. 

This leaves the Waltons, Berkshires & Westward Ho!  I don't believe WHo! is in the class of the others, but I can understand my notions being disputed.  Personally, I would plug for the Red (certainly) and probably the Blue over either WH course. 

I spose this makes it

Beau Desert
Eastward Ho!(?)
Berkshire Red & Blue

If not Eastward Ho! then I cast my vote for WH New. 

Ciao

How 'bout East Devon?  Probably add that to the Ganton et al. list but could be considered.

Anyone play Bull Bay in Anglesey?

Saunton (East more than West) too?  Will the judges take that?

Sean, if you talk to anyone at Lytham I think they'd say it's mostly Colt on top of the original George Lowe lay-out.

J

If Saunton is indeed mainly a Fowler course I would pick it over Berkshire Blue. 

Ciao

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