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David Stamm

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Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2008, 07:03:16 PM »
I'm really surpised no one has mentioned Valderrama in regards to RTJ. I haven't seen enough of RTJ to say for sure, but John Kirk is right, Pauma Valley is one of his more respected designs. I've played it several times and I like despite it's symetrical looking bunkers. I know Brad Klein has spoken well of it. It was a top 100 at one time. I think the Dunes Club has been a course mentioned as one of his best.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2008, 11:38:38 PM »
I do think every architect's first course should be included as among their most influential; for a couple I am not sure where it is.  What was Stanley Thompson's first work?  Or Tom Simpson's?

I'm a little surprised by that comment. Isn't High Pointe your first solo design? Do you really consider that to be among the most influential of your works?

Every journey begins with a single step, no?

And I'm sure those early experiences influenced later Doak designs to a great extent, but I would think his later works have had more influence on other architects, no?
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #102 on: February 15, 2008, 01:47:27 AM »
I'm really surpised no one has mentioned Valderrama in regards to RTJ. I haven't seen enough of RTJ to say for sure, but John Kirk is right, Pauma Valley is one of his more respected designs. I've played it several times and I like despite it's symetrical looking bunkers. I know Brad Klein has spoken well of it. It was a top 100 at one time. I think the Dunes Club has been a course mentioned as one of his best.

Spyglass is destined to be a part of that conversation.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Phil_the_Author

Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #103 on: February 15, 2008, 05:07:15 AM »
Tom,

You said that your assignment is to define the "most important works" of the architects that you'll be writing about. Do you view that as a list of courses that aren't necessarily the ones viewed as the best but more so as the ones that influenced their careers and have greater historical significance? I take it that way because you have stated more than once that the 1st course should be included simply because it was the 1st.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #104 on: February 15, 2008, 07:11:39 AM »
Phil:

I think the first course should be included because

a.  Without it there might not have been any more, and

b.  It is the truest expression of the architect's "new ideas" being given a chance to make their way into the world

I'm sure there are exceptions to this, when the architect had not had sufficient practice under someone else and wasn't too polished in his ability to get his ideas into the ground -- C.B. Macdonald on his original effort for Chicago Golf Club at Belmont, for example, or Donald Ross at Oakley (if that was in fact his first design).  Even in those cases, reason (a) comes into play.

Ian Andrew

Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #105 on: February 15, 2008, 08:12:17 AM »
Tom Doak,

For Stanley Thompson - his first course came from his association with Nichol Thompson (his brother) and George Cumming. He got work because they were essentially the only architects in town - and golf exploded during this period.

The course is not considered anything influential - in fact it never even makes a conversation about his work - the only time its mentioned is by historians since it just happens to be his first course.

He did other work - when he created his own company Stanley Thompson & Associates in 1921 - that was clearly much better and starting to show signs of what was to come.

As I said in the piece I wrote about him in the "my Opinion" section, his work improved as he built new courses not only for himself but also for for architects such as Alison and Tillinghast. I think his skill increased as he worked on more projects (and potentially with new people). I would honestly say that Stanley was not the great architect we know from the outset but became one very quickly. That's my opinion from seeing most of his earliest work - you can see the hints of what is to come.

I'm curious to your thoughts given this information - do you still think the first is a must in all circumstance.

Lester George

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Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #106 on: February 15, 2008, 10:30:17 AM »
Tom,

Yes, they really had an American architect in Hiroshima although it was a strange relationship. 

The Forest Hills Golf and Resort was started as another exclusive private mens club at the new international airport village in Hiroshima.  Sometime during the first two years of construction the Japanese market went south and the club ran on hard times. 

The speaker of the general assembly of Hiroshima (like a governor, who was a graduate of North Carolina A&T and a 2 handicap) decided to take the project over and build the first Municipal golf course in the entire Hiroshima Prefecture (about the size of Massachusetts).  He wanted an American architect.  The original Japanese architect was relieved of his duties. 

Literally three phone calls later and I was on my way to finish the course.  I changes 15 of the 18 holes over a one year period and opened the course in the most incredible ceremony ever.  Over 30 people attended from the US including a high school chior from Virginia Beach!

The weird part was that about half way through the project they found out that my father flew B-24 bombers during WWII and was part of the reconstruction of Japan effort after the war.  They also knew I was a career reserve Army officer.  It changed the whole dynamic.  Not sure whether they liked it that much, but the speaker and I forged a good relationship and we finished his dream project. 

Lester 

Phil_the_Author

Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #107 on: February 15, 2008, 11:04:13 AM »
Tom,

I think my comment may have been confusing.

I wasn't asking why the 1st course as a given, but rather, asking for a more detailed explanation as to what you meant by the phrase "most important works."

There have been a few comments on the thread that speak to an architect's BEST works, as if you were seeking a ranking of them. I don't think that is what you are looking for. For example, one course that I would place among the most important of Tilly's works was Fresh Meadows yet I most would never mention it because it hasn't existed now for about a half-century.

It's importance is shown in that of all his courses that have hosted major championships over the years, this was his first design that hosted 2 of them.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #108 on: February 15, 2008, 11:13:43 AM »
I propose the following for Robert Muir Graves:

Sea Ranch
Port Ludlow
Quail Lodge
Blue Rock - East


 Kalen, what about La Purisima?

Good call David....I kept thinking I was forgetting one!!!

Graves has done some very very solid work over the years....very reliable in knowing you will get something at least interesting if not well done.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #109 on: February 15, 2008, 06:40:37 PM »
Tom,

Yes, they really had an American architect in Hiroshima although it was a strange relationship. 

The Forest Hills Golf and Resort was started as another exclusive private mens club at the new international airport village in Hiroshima.  Sometime during the first two years of construction the Japanese market went south and the club ran on hard times. 

The speaker of the general assembly of Hiroshima (like a governor, who was a graduate of North Carolina A&T and a 2 handicap) decided to take the project over and build the first Municipal golf course in the entire Hiroshima Prefecture (about the size of Massachusetts).  He wanted an American architect.  The original Japanese architect was relieved of his duties. 

Literally three phone calls later and I was on my way to finish the course.  I changes 15 of the 18 holes over a one year period and opened the course in the most incredible ceremony ever.  Over 30 people attended from the US including a high school chior from Virginia Beach!

The weird part was that about half way through the project they found out that my father flew B-24 bombers during WWII and was part of the reconstruction of Japan effort after the war.  They also knew I was a career reserve Army officer.  It changed the whole dynamic.  Not sure whether they liked it that much, but the speaker and I forged a good relationship and we finished his dream project. 

Lester 

Great story.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #110 on: February 15, 2008, 07:48:23 PM »
Phil:

Sorry I misunderstood you.  You're right that I was not really asking for people's rankings of the architects' best works -- I know it's subjective, and in most cases I am very well aware of the consensus opinion there.

If I'm going to list 5-10 key works for each architect, I pretty much have to include certain courses which made the book, giving me 2-3 extras to list.  Everyone has their favorite hidden gem, but I wanted to give a sense of which courses the architect himself might name, or other courses which illustrate the depth and range of his work.

I would never have thought of Fresh Meadow for Tillinghast, because I don't place that much value on hosting championships.  If Tillie did, he's got plenty of other work to illustrate that, anyway.  Which would you name for Tillinghast?  Off the top of my head:

Shawnee
Somerset Hills
SFGC
Winged Foot
Bethpage
Baltusrol
Quaker Ridge
Five Farms
Fenway (a hidden gem, but I don't know that it was "influential" in any way, and certainly not as different stylistically as Somerset Hills or SFGC)


rchesnut

Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #111 on: February 15, 2008, 11:52:48 PM »
What about Old Tom Morris?  I'm not a historian, it's hard for me to figure out what he should be credited with since much of his work has been significantly altered.  But based on what remains: 

Royal County Down
Muirfield
Lahinch
Cruden Bay

 (Haven't played Carnoustie or Dornoch, they probably belong here)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #112 on: February 16, 2008, 09:37:58 AM »
Tom,

You asked for a list of what I consider Tilly’s most important works. You picked 9 & so I “limited” it to that many. I’m sure a few will surprise you. Here it is as well as the reasons why I have picked these… Sorry for the length, but I feel the explanations are as important as the choices. I have listed them in the order of when they opened for play.

Shawnee – 1911
This was his first; that alone makes it significant, yet few 1st courses have had as profound an impact on a great architect’s career. If there was ever a course that made use of “template” holes and features, this was it. From the Punchbowl green to the “mid-surrey-type” alpinization that was copied almost immediately by others, still these features were incorporated in a manner that were considered fresh ideas rather than copies of great holes. His use of the Binniekill of the Delaware River and the isle of Shawnee was also a bold move as he had a choice of places on the property upon which to build the course. In addition, in 1912 they first played the Shawnee Open that was the fore-runner of the Eastern open. Especially during the teens this was considered among the handful of most important tournaments played in America. Every great pro of the day, both American and the international players who came to America at that time, competed in it. Its acclaim as a great design was carried throughout the country by these professionals and resulted in Tilly’s consideration for work nearly anywhere in the country at a time when communication and trans-American travel were rudimentary at best.

Brackenridge Park – 1916
This is an example of work that probably came about as a result of Shawnee. It was among the first of what I would refer to as engineered golf courses. It was built on a so-so site that required tremendous labor yet he was able to incorporate many of the difficult local features such as the swampy streams into a number of the holes. He also preserved and used a good number of specimen trees. This is the site of the original Texas Open and where it was contested for more years than can be counted. With the forming of the fledgling Professional Golfers Association in 1916, this became a most important stop as it also attracted what was the largest purse ($6,000) of any tournament in the country at the time. 

Cedar Crest – 1916
A fine design, yet its importance lay in the part it played in bringing about Tilly’s work in the entire region. For example, Brook Hollow & Oak Hills in Texas, as well as the Tulsa and Oaks Country Clubs in Oklahoma were all projects that can be traced to his work here. Cedar Crest is also another design whose own origin can be traced back to Shawnee and the Eastern Open.

San Francisco Golf Club – 1919(?)
Consider just some of the designs that Tilly was working on at the same time he was designing what may be his finest creation of all. Baltusrol, Philadelphia Cricket Club, Cedar Brook, Brook Hollow, Cedar Crest & Quaker Ridge to literally name but a few.

Baltusrol Lower & Upper – 1922
This project would take nearly 6 years to complete. It is one of the great feats of golf course engineering. He took a course that had hosted numerous US Opens and Amateurs and gutted it in order to build two courses, both of which were far better the original, in its place. This is the project that was spoken of where Tilly was given an unlimited budget and exceeded it; yet it was money very well spent. Beyond the quality of the designs, the project required Tilly to have “at least 18 holes open for play at all times” despite how the old course would be destroyed. One of the very first, if not the first, project where two courses were designed and constructed at the same time. Just four years after opening it would host the 1926 US Amateur championship.

Winged Foot – 1923
This is the site of where Tilly was given just one piece of instruction; build us a “man-sized” course. Did he ever. The bunkers, the greens, the intertwining of two courses routed in and around each other to create what may be the two finest courses at any single club, was both brilliant and inspiring. From the unforgettable 1929 US Open won by Bobby Jones in a playoff down to today, it has remained the site where champions are defined.

Baltimore Country Club, 5 Farms – 1925
This was another two-course project where the second course was never built. It is among his most elegant of designs. The routing is subtly brilliant in how it meanders through the rolling hillsides without ever being repetitive or exhausting. The green complexes are among his finest and most exciting. With all of the great courses designed by Tilly before 5 Farms, it holds the distinction (along with Fresh meadows) as the clubs of his which first held two national championships, the 1928 PGA & 1932 US Amateur.

Alpine – 1931
Among all of his great designs, the importance of Alpine and it’s influence in golf course architecture and construction is two-fold. First, the nation was suffering the worst of the Great Depression. There was little enough money for food, let alone the building of a golf club that would have stretched the pocket books of it’s Gatsby-era members just a few years before. This project sent a message throughout the land that great courses and expensive undertakings could still take place. The second, and maybe greatest aspect of its importance, lay in the engineering feet that was required to simply build it.
      To enable them to deal with the site conditions, they first established a large work camp, with a field office and even a commissary. These were needed as the holes were carved out of thick forest, swampland, and tremendous rock. This should not have surprised anyone as the Palisades of the Hudson River is quite close at hand, the cliffs of which are made of some of the most beautiful and strongest rock formations in North America. There was so much rock needing removal that more than thirty tractors were kept in continuous duty to accomplish the task.
      If that were not enough, the first year of the project was plagued with unseasonable and continuous rain. The second year had the opposite problem as the drought that plagued the mid-west and turned it into a dust bowl was now being felt here in the east. The tractors and vehicles were covered with such a thick layer of dust that Harold Worden observed, “They looked like ghosts.”
      Even with all of the rock being carted daily from the property, a great deal of it was piled up or crushed on site and laid out as a base for the fairways. Thousands of cubic yards of cinders, manure and peat moss were worked into the soil that covered these over. Today there is no sign of it being an artificial construction; in fact, the course gives the impression of having been carved out of the soil.
      Worden loved the putting surfaces, writing that, “I think the greens are the most pleasing I ever have seen, imposing yet of pleasing simplicity. Each has its rock foundation and several were built entirely of assembled stones before the soil was drawn over in ample measure. Even the approaches to the greens were contoured as ingeniously as the greens themselves. This new course is a great one.”
      After this, no course would be impossible to build.

Bethpage State Park – ENTIRE project 1935-36
Bethpage State Park is defined by the Black Course, and yet it, and the entire project, was so much more than that. First of all it was, and remains, the largest single golf-course building project ever accomplished. Neither before or since has there been a project where three new courses (and an existing one that was completely renovated) were designed and constructed at one time on a single site. There are larger facilities, but everyone of these was the product of courses being added along singularly.
      The designs of the three new courses were starkly different from each other and yet each had design features that Tilly had spent his entire career in developing. Each one was also recognized by all, professionals, USGA and the average Joe alike as being challenging and inspiring. To this day it is still the only club where three different courses have hosted National Championships. In fact one of these, the 1936 USGA Publinks, was awarded to the club before the first course opened for play in April 0f 1935.
      During the era when professional players needed to play exhibition matches to just scrape out a living, the quality of players and the size of the crowds following them were most impressive. Imagine 10,000 people during the Depression coming out on a Monday to watch an exhibition match staged by two golfers. This took place on September 29th in 1940 when Byron Nelson proved his superiority over Sam Snead on the Black course during an epic match that has inspired myths about it in the New York area. Nelson and Snead (Nelson had beaten Snead at Hershey for the PGA Championship just 6 weeks before) with Byron being declared the winner as a result of shooting a 69 and setting a new course record. Ironically it was Snead’s record of 70 that he broke from two years before and that he managed to tie that day.
      Lawson Little, Lighthorse Harry Cooper, Jimmy Hines, gene Sarazen and many others all played exhibitions here.
      Bethpage proved that municipalities could build and provide golf and golf courses for the public that could and did rival the greatest private facilities, even during these, the toughest of times.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #113 on: February 16, 2008, 10:29:40 AM »
Phil:

Thanks for your list.  I have never seen Breckenridge, Cedar Crest, or Alpine, and perhaps I should go see Alpine one of these days. 

Still, I think like many experts on certain architects -- I do it for MacKenzie, but it is colloquially known here as "pulling a Wayne" :) -- you are ascribing more importance to Alpine than it is due.  It was Tillie's biggest construction job, but was it bigger than Banff or Yale which came before it?  And who exactly did it inspire to build something bigger and bolder?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #114 on: March 18, 2009, 02:01:37 PM »
I really thought this was a good thread.  Interestingly, Colt was never properly explored, not even by Doak.  I would really like to hear (well see) what people think about Colt.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #115 on: March 18, 2009, 02:25:19 PM »
coore & crenshaw:

sand hills
friar's head
plantation course at kapalua
old sandwich

I have a feeling Bandon Trails belongs on this list. Perhaps in place of The Plantation?
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #116 on: March 18, 2009, 02:32:14 PM »
Harbottle

Cinnabar hills
Stevinson Ranch
Palouse Ridge?
Gold Mountain?
Timilick?
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #117 on: March 18, 2009, 02:52:18 PM »
Can't forget "God"!

The Old Course
Sand Hills
Old Head
Banff Springs

[just kidding] ;)

Banff Springs was dynamited in multiple locations and had sand imported from the Bow River valley - I would question your accreditation. :)
I had almost forgotten about my nominee in this old thread.
Shall we substitute "Pebble Beach" for Banff?  Perhaps "Cape Kidnappers"? (I wouldn't wish to detract from Tom Doak's generous participation).

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #118 on: March 18, 2009, 03:19:22 PM »
AV Macan

1.  Broadmoor
2.  Inglewood
3.  Fircrest
4.  Royal Colwood

While not widely discussed on a national level, he sure made an impression out here in the Pac NW..

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #119 on: March 18, 2009, 03:20:38 PM »
Mackenzie:

CPC
Royal Melbourne East
Crystal Downs (Have not played, but it seems to be in everyone's top 10 courses of those who have)
Pasatiempo


You mean RM West, right?

MacKenzie

CPC
Pasatiempo
RM
Crystal Downs

Valley Club and Kingston Heath can easily have a case made as well.


Kingston Heath?

Jim Nugent

Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #120 on: March 18, 2009, 03:28:13 PM »
Cary's list of my four is the consensus choice, but it'll be harder to choose in a couple more years.


Tom, Old Mac and Rock Creek are two obvious contenders.  Any others that might have that potential? 

I would put ANGC on MacKenzie's list, if we can use original form.   

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #121 on: March 18, 2009, 03:29:55 PM »
Kyle Phillips

Kingsbarns
Cal Club (not original but a new front nine)
Dundonald
The Grove
Morgan Creek

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #122 on: March 18, 2009, 04:11:17 PM »
Ted Robinson
1
2
3
4

Mark Manuel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects
« Reply #123 on: March 18, 2009, 04:43:21 PM »
Never any love for Dick Wilson in this place.....

NCR South
Coldstream
Dubsdread
Pine Tree
The golf ball is like a woman, you have to talk it on the off chance it might listen.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 4 courses of architects New
« Reply #124 on: March 18, 2009, 07:27:35 PM »
Alright then, I will take a crack at Colt.

Portrush
St Georges Hill
Rosses Point

Tie for the last spot

Sunny New
Swinley Forest

If I have to pick one it has to be Sunny New Swinley. 

I didn't mention Muirfield because I think Colt gets way too much credit for the inner/outer loop routing.  I know Willie Park Jr beat him to at Stoneham and that the general routing is based off OTM's.  The other thing which makes Muirfied stand out is the bunkering, but I don't know how much of it is Colt's.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 09:06:34 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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