Pebble Beach?

[Adam Clayman]

Brian, From the aerial the look is similar, but on the ground they are not. #9 has a very steep bunker, fronting the green on the left, with a tiny apron approach ramp, on the right which will accept the run up shot.  In front of that left bunker is a rather ominous reparian/valley/cut out, which is somewhat obscured from a distance. Any ball short and left is mostly dead and the fairway cant, on that side, repels balls left into the trouble.. On #10 the safe play is short and left, allowing for the right kick up onto the green. (Condition and distance approach dependent). It's left side bunker is green side, not fronting. If one attacks from the right it is a finite carry distance over the cliff's cut out. I hope that gives you a better understanding of the approaches to the hole. The fairway's are also very dissimilar.

[Tom Huckaby]

As for the rest, my issue with PD - and I am loathe to mention this given I do truly love the course, believe me I do - is that while I concur there are no weak holes, there are also none quite as great as #6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 14 and 18 at PB... and I might even add 3, 4, 5, and 17 to that list as well.  I suppose #6 at PD can hold it's head amongst those as it is one unique, fantastic golf hole.  13 is pretty damn great hole too, and 16 and 17 are very cool.  But I don't go to PD looking forward to playing any one incredible hole outside of 6... whereas at PB, my heart sings for any of the holes I mentioned.

Pacific Dunes and Pebble Beach are such different courses, I think it's not really fair to compare them as is so often done.  Yes, they're both public-access, seaside courses but the similarities end there.  Pacific Dunes, while on a clifftop, is sand-based and plays like a links.  Pebble Beach is closer to the ocean, but has no links characteristics (despite its name). 

Tom, I take issue with the suggestion that #6 is the only stand-out hole at Pacific Dunes.  Outside of #1, the entire front side is pretty incredible in my book and I'd throw in #11, #13 and #15 too.  If you're saying that the only hole at PD that can compete with the likes of #17 at Pebble Beach is PD #6, then that's crazy talk. 

Tim - that post was done in a different context, in a somewhat contentious exchange.  Taking it out of context and separately does not fairly assess my take here.

Read the entire exchange and perhaps it will make more sense.

I love PD.  I do believe there are MANY great golf holes on that great course.

The real point though was that PB does have more holes that really get my blood pumping and knees shaking.  I overstated it in that post primarily due to the contentious exchange. 

TH

[George Pazin]

Bryan -

Adam stated it a lot more comprehensively than I ever could.

The only thing I'd add is that it appeals to the science geek in me: you tweak one little part of an experiment and see what ensues.

Sorry if I offended any non-science geeks out there.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim - that post was done in a different context, in a somewhat contentious exchange.  Taking it out of context and separately does not fairly assess my take here.

Read the entire exchange and perhaps it will make more sense.

I love PD.  I do believe there are MANY great golf holes on that great course.

The real point though was that PB does have more holes that really get my blood pumping and knees shaking.  I overstated it in that post primarily due to the contentious exchange. 

You were talking smack (at least partly)--ok, I get it. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - that post was done in a different context, in a somewhat contentious exchange.  Taking it out of context and separately does not fairly assess my take here.

Read the entire exchange and perhaps it will make more sense.

I love PD.  I do believe there are MANY great golf holes on that great course.

The real point though was that PB does have more holes that really get my blood pumping and knees shaking.  I overstated it in that post primarily due to the contentious exchange. 

You were talking smack (at least partly)--ok, I get it. 

Succinctly and perfectly put.   

[Kalen Braley]

Is there a stretch of holes that can compete with PB 4-10 on the shock and awe scale?  Right now the only thing coming to mind is ANGC 10-16...thats a pretty awesome stretch.

Any others?

[Bryan Izatt]

Brian, From the aerial the look is similar, but on the ground they are not. #9 has a very steep bunker, fronting the green on the left, with a tiny apron approach ramp, on the right which will accept the run up shot.  In front of that left bunker is a rather ominous reparian/valley/cut out, which is somewhat obscured from a distance. Any ball short and left is mostly dead and the fairway cant, on that side, repels balls left into the trouble.. On #10 the safe play is short and left, allowing for the right kick up onto the green. (Condition and distance approach dependent). It's left side bunker is green side, not fronting. If one attacks from the right it is a finite carry distance over the cliff's cut out. I hope that gives you a better understanding of the approaches to the hole. The fairway's are also very dissimilar.

Adam, thanks, yes that helps.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bob,

How about a partial refund in light of the outrageous fees.    It is indeed a gem, an expensive gem, but like many gems there are some slight internal flaws. 

Bryan,

An outragageous fee is when there is no alternative to the service offered and is neccessary for the preservation of life and limb. No one is forced to fork over four hundred dollars for a game of golf. There have been times when I have paid more for a scalped ticket to the opera but I felt no need to complain. I wanted to see and hear it, so the price was immaterial.

We all have discretionary dollars, we should use them with joy and abandon.



Bob

Bob,

I meant outrageous in the sense of "greatly exceeding bounds of reason or moderation".  Thursday I hope to be at Rustic Canyon for $37.  I could have gone to PB instead for $425 (??) but that's outrageous to me (not to mention my wife). 

As for discretionary dollars, sure, I have some (although I wouldn't make that assumption about everyone here) but not enough that I want to spend them on PB more than once.  I have a value for money streak in me. 

I'd like to spend them with joy and abandon, but considering how hard it was to get them, I haven't quite mastered the joy and abandon approach yet.     Maybe in the future.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:  give up now. 

Shirley, you jest.[/color]

You will never get me to agree that what my eye sees and my heart feels somehow doesn't matter in how great a golf hole is to me. 

Then you must get the same feeling and see the same Pacific Ocean when you play Trump LA, Bodega Harbor, Sandpiper, Pebble Beach, Cypress Point and Spyglass.

Whereas, I evaluate the individual hole and features without weighting that evaluation based on the view.
I believe that Pebble Beach would be great in ANY location.
[/color]

I will agree that it doesn't matter TO YOU, but it's a fool's errand to try to tell me how to feel.

I continue to feel with my hands, and although it's gotten me in some trouble over the years, on the whole, it's been worth it.[/color]

But outside of that, I completely agree that each of those holes are great golf holes.  If you want to disregard what's obvious to the whole rest of the world in your assessments, then have at it.  Just remember - and I shall tell you this for about the 500th time now - what you call "window dressings" I have never said are the MOST important aspect of the assessment, nor are REQUIRED, nor are anything of the sort... all I ever said is that they MATTER - as a bonus in the case of Pebble Beach, or as perhaps a negative in the case of a course next to a toxic waste dump or the like.

I know, you like to throw in brownie points for things far removed from the golf course, whereas I'd prefer to confine my analysis of the features and the holes to the internal boundaries of the golf course.

While the Ocean is scenic, I value it more for ....... the wind it brings to the site.[/color]

I NEVER NEVER NEVER said the ocean "makes" PB. 

I never, never, never said you did.[/color]

All I ever said is that the views matter, exactly as I've described here, which I've also tried to explain to you at least 500 previous times - and yet you keep mischaracterizing me.   

Would you show me where I mischaracterized you in this thread ?[/color]

You seem to think the views have ZERO role at all, and I continue to think you are quite crazy in that.

The views, beyond the boundaries of the golf course have ZERO role in the analysis of the features and the playability of the holes[/color]

I'd say I have a goal of converting you in 2008, but I know my limitations.  You still think Charlie Weis is a fine coach and all is well at ND.

Yes, I do, and, yes, it is.
You know, if a certain investigation reveals some unpleasant facts, your favorite team's record from a few years ago might go to 0-13. [/color]

But enough of this - we're arguing particulars about the manner of getting to something on which we whole-heartedly agree... which is silly... if you want to say:

Pebble Beach is a WORLD class golf course that happens to be adjacent to the Pacific Ocean.

I will say, hear, here, full agreement, well said.

I believe that Pebble Beach is a WORLD class golf course, and would remain so irrespective of its location, as long as the features remained intact.[/color]

Because at least you've acknowledged that the Pacific Ocean EXISTS... baby steps in the right direction for you, Pat.

That's the same Pacific Ocean that I saw while playing EVERY hole at Bodega.
EXCEPT when I got distracted on the par 3 by the gorgeous woman in the hot tub with a bottle of wine on ice and nothing on her.  My brain eliminated all thoughts of golf, save for night putting, and she wasn't even the Dean's daughter.
That's the same Pacific Ocean I saw while playing Sandpiper and Spyglass.
The same Pacific Ocean where the 18th slid into it at Trump LA.
The same Pacific Ocean I saw while playing Bandon and Pacific Dunes.

By the way, it's a nice Ocean, but, it's the ground you play on that determines the merits of the holes and the golf course.[/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I concur with every bit of that.

So you finally do admit the presence of the ocean views matter, and thus,

I WIN.

[Gene Greco]

Is there a stretch of holes that can compete with PB 4-10 on the shock and awe scale?  Any others?

1-4, 10-18 Sand Hills

13-17 Cypress Point

1-6, 14-18 NGLA

9-18 Shinnecock Hills

1-9 Royal County Down


Will be taking my son for his first visit to Pebble this coming Monday!