2015 US Open to Chambers Bay

[J Sadowsky]

Tiger will be 39.  Nicklaus won his 3rd to last and 2nd to last majors at 40.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Is there another US Open course that plays like a links course. The closest that comes to mind is Shinnecock. Could this be a paradagm shift* in golf design for pro tourneys?  How differrent from TPC design is this layout?

Is this the closest venue to a British Open (of the links courses) ever selected?

I can't seem to remember . . . are the greens @ CB USGA spec or Pushups?

  The selection is very surprising, except, of course, to soothesayer Bayley.

* always wanted to use those words in a sentence.

Actually Slag,  The Amateur is not a big surprise to those of us who live here and have been following the story from the moment they announced the architect.  Pierce County Executive landenberg had been 'promsing all along that something like this was the goal.  Take a look at my post 94 above. 

The Open being announced simultaneously, however, is a surprise.  What is becoming clear is that the USGA s now going further afield because the event has achieved ridiculous proportions.  Clubs like Wing Foot  and Shinnecock are no longer willing to subject themselves to the inconvenience and expense of hlding the event. 

Tacoma/ Pierce County have been looking for a way to remove themselves/ourselves from the shadow of Seattle for over 10 years and this has finally provided another opportunity to do so.  Seattle media doesn't seem to have any idea of how to deal with this story.  No worries, ESPN and the Golf Channel will accredit the event to Seattle, I' sure. 

Just to sumarize: the course was designed for this eventuality.  The site lends itself to this kind of circus, and the County and its Executive are banking on this making the project a financial success.  That has been the goal for five years when they selected RT Jones II and went upscale risking the taxpayer dollars.  Many of us here who doubted it would ever hapen are now eating crow, me included.  Although we have been waiting for a USGA event since opening day, I simply thought it would be the Mid-Am. 

[Joe Hancock]

WH,

Thanks for all the details on how this course and event have come to be.

In your opinion, is this an appropriate way for a municipality to be involved in golf, specifically to provide a means of recreation to the local constituency? Does it have the potential to be a considerable burden on the local taxpayer, in light of the proposed clubhouse? Is this type of project going to spur on, or hinder more golf development in the area?

Thanks,

Joe

[Michael Dugger]

Isn't change a grand thing???

I imagine most of the golfing locals are thrilled Chambers was awarded the 2015 U.S. Open, I personally have long yearned for a big tournament in our region, let alone a major!!!

I saw Jay Blasi at the Portland Golf Show today, needless to say he's ecstatic!!!

He reminded me it's the first time a new course has hosted the U.S. Open since 1970, Hazeltine, which was built by RTJones Sr. in 1962.

It's a significant moment in the history of the United States Open, we must embrace change, not fight it, people.  

I'm sure it'll be a great tournament.  For starters, the weather ought to be quite nice that time of year.  2015 gives the course 7-8 years to mature.

And as Bill Cosgrove pointed out, they considered the possibility of hosting a large tournament in designing the facility.  Let Winged Foot turn away the U.S. Open, I can well imagine there is long line of courses besides Chambers Bay lining up to host a major tournament.

I expect it will play fast and firm, some wind should be blowing, it'll will be an interesting test of golf, narrow fairways or not.

Hey Nyk Pike!!!!  The dream continues, buddy.  You're the head pro at a course which is about to host the U.S. freaking Open!!!

[Brad Klein]

Cos,

Ladenberg wants to build a clubhouse, but i think the $35 milion covers a clubhouse, hotel and banquet hall, with the cost to be borne by the developer, which presumably they'd bid out.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

WH,

Thanks for all the details on how this course and event have come to be.

In your opinion, is this an appropriate way for a municipality to be involved in golf, specifically to provide a means of recreation to the local constituency? Does it have the potential to be a considerable burden on the local taxpayer, in light of the proposed clubhouse? Is this type of project going to spur on, or hinder more golf development in the area?

Thanks,

Joe

In a word NO!  

Pierce County and John Ladenburg have always been convinced that this was the right thing to do.   I don't see it creating new opportunity for the underserved, which I see as the duty of government.  The county needed to do something with the property and there were other considerations.  

Chambers has so far proven everyone wrong, so much for the naysayers in the community.  


Brad, you're correct, the $35 million is said to include Lodging, Clubhouse, and practice facility and presumably will be underwritten by private development.    I am still reticent to accept another huge bit of infrastructure to the Chambers property and would hope liability will be limited to the taxpayers. 

You know me pretty well, this is as much as anything my conservatism and belief that government should limit their involvement in projects of this scale and purpose.

Now if you folks want to see a town that is super excited about an event 7 years away, come on over to T-Town and join in the celebration.

[Garland Bayley]

Nothing against Chambers Bay in particular, but I think it's a bad thing -- only because it will make everybody developing a new public course drool unrealistically about hosting a U.S. Open themselves.

We don't need architects to create more potential U.S. Open venues.  We need the USGA to do something about preserving the ones we've got.

I disagree. An area the size of Seattle/Tacoma with a property like Chambers Bay can realistically develop with the intention of attracting a major. I would suggest Dallas/Fort Worth or Houston might be successful to. They are probably overjoyed every time Tulsa hosts a major. I would conclude that Portland isn't a large enough, but if it did try, I would hope that we'd throw the bums out.

[Cory Brown]

Slag,
The greens at Chambers are of course USGA spec, the course was built with the intention of hosting a USGA event and the Golf Course Superintendent is a former USGA employee.
The greens are also fescue, they roll at about 9-10' on the stimpmeter.  I believe they will get them a little faster for the Open, but with the fescue it will not be possible nor necessary to get them much faster.  These greens are very interesting and have an unbelievable amount of slope

[Eric Johnson]

Slag,

The greens are also fescue, they roll at about 9-10' on the stimpmeter.  I believe they will get them a little faster for the Open, but with the fescue it will not be possible nor necessary to get them much faster.  These greens are very interesting and have an unbelievable amount of slope

How can you state that it will not be possible to get fescue greens much faster?  It may not be necessary however, fescue greens can be managed to any speed required for the US Open (and then some)!  It all comes down to cultural management and weather.

[Jim Nugent]

Nothing against Chambers Bay in particular, but I think it's a bad thing -- only because it will make everybody developing a new public course drool unrealistically about hosting a U.S. Open themselves.

We don't need architects to create more potential U.S. Open venues.  We need the USGA to do something about preserving the ones we've got.

What is bad about designing/building more fantastic public courses?  Whether or not they get the U.S. Open, we the golfers can play on still more great layouts. 

Seems to me the USGA preserving great courses is a separate issue from municipalities building new ones. 

[RJ_Daley]

On the issue of a municipality taking on or being subject to a financial failure of a leased-on developer to do such a clubhouse, lodge, facility, consider the little bureg of Green Bay and Brown County.  We basically are paying .5% sales tax until the burder of the 500million upgrade of Lambeau Field a few years ago.  The paydown is going splendidly on time, as is told by the powers that be.

For Pierce County, which is more populated than Brown Co., to be in second place behind the poetential developer, for a facility that is used nearly every day, generating revenue, seems a lot better than a facility like Lambeau that is used 10-12 times a year, but does have a pub-merch mall and atrium. 

And, doesn't the USGA regularly provide upfront grants to the venue in advance, and didn't Bethpage get a few million and Torrey even more for upgrades?  Will the USGA help with infrastructure development in the intervening 7 years.

BTW, here is a pic of a youngster who dreamed he would become a golf course archie who would have a hand in a course that would someday be an open venue - while he was still dreaming...

[Garland Bayley]

You know how at most open sites if you miss the fairway, you are in deep rough, but if you miss far enough, you are in trampled grass. I think I will enjoy seeing the pros miss far enough at Chambers Bay to be in trampled sand. If they thought the rough at Oakmont was penal, wait until they find their ball a the bottom of a foot print in the soft sand at Chambers Bay. When I found my self in such a position, I violated the 14 club rule and resorted to the hand wedge. But, then I was playing for fun, and not keeping score.

[Richard Choi]

Great point Garland.

The soft sand at Chambers Bay is extremely penal. When I end up in a footprint, it usually takes me 3 or 4 shots before I can get out. I have used a hand wedge as well.

But I would think a lot of that is going to be softened up by the time US Open comes around as much of that wasted area will be covered with tall fescue which will firm up the ground a bit.

[Garland Bayley]

I haven't had a chance to try it, but I wonder if the best escape from some of the areas would be to hit it down slope away from the fairway, and then play the next one back onto the fairway.

[Tim Gavrich]

Is this a slap in the face to the people at Erin Hills?

[RJ_Daley]

I wouldn't think it is an intentional slap in the face at all.  I doubt that the USGA goes around slapping good people in golf's egos around.  Mr. Lang surely wouldn't deserve a slap, more like a pat on the back for his firm convictions and labor of love and investment for the love of the game.  But, at the end of the day, I would imagine the USGA made a deliberative decision, and picked CB for all the reasons, including possibly better architecture and design of a course more conducive to the kind of golf competition and in the area that they want to present. 

Let's just wait and see how EH performs for the Women's Pub Links this summer, and some other tournaments that will be conducted there over the next few years.  I'd love to see the college guys have a serious tournament there next to challenge some of the longer yardage options.

I firmly believe that what is known up to this time of the two newly opened courses, CB is the better choice.   Heck in 8 years, there may be a hue and outcry to alter some holes, particularly at EH IMHO.  8 years can do a lot of things to a golf course, not all good things.

[Garland Bayley]

In one of the few answers the USGA chose to give me, they wrote me that they were very interested in holding an open in the PNW. I suppose Erin Hills suffers the disadvantage of being in a region of the country that has had multiple majors. The USGA was not slapping anyone in the face, they were simply taking advantage of an opportunity that finally presented itself.

[Jim Nugent]

You know how at most open sites if you miss the fairway, you are in deep rough, but if you miss far enough, you are in trampled grass. I think I will enjoy seeing the pros miss far enough at Chambers Bay to be in trampled sand. If they thought the rough at Oakmont was penal, wait until they find their ball a the bottom of a foot print in the soft sand at Chambers Bay. When I found my self in such a position, I violated the 14 club rule and resorted to the hand wedge. But, then I was playing for fun, and not keeping score.

How far offline do the pro's have to miss to get in this trampled sand -- i.e. how often do you think this will come up in the Open? 

[Tim Gavrich]

I wouldn't think it is an intentional slap in the face at all.  I doubt that the USGA goes around slapping good people in golf's egos around.  Mr. Lang surely wouldn't deserve a slap, more like a pat on the back for his firm convictions and labor of love and investment for the love of the game.  But, at the end of the day, I would imagine the USGA made a deliberative decision, and picked CB for all the reasons, including possibly better architecture and design of a course more conducive to the kind of golf competition and in the area that they want to present. 

Let's just wait and see how EH performs for the Women's Pub Links this summer, and some other tournaments that will be conducted there over the next few years.  I'd love to see the college guys have a serious tournament there next to challenge some of the longer yardage options.

I firmly believe that what is known up to this time of the two newly opened courses, CB is the better choice.   Heck in 8 years, there may be a hue and outcry to alter some holes, particularly at EH IMHO.  8 years can do a lot of things to a golf course, not all good things.

Fair enough.  I didn't mean to imply that said slap was intentional.  It had just been my understanding that Erin Hills was to be the future US Open venue before Chambers Bay was in the mix.  Of course, that may just be because I wasn't aware of Chambers Bay until later on in the process of its construction.

I find it interesting that when 2015 rolls around, Chambers Bay will be the youngest US Open site by a few decades, will it not?  That kind of skips over 20 or 30 years of architecture, which is unusual.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

You know how at most open sites if you miss the fairway, you are in deep rough, but if you miss far enough, you are in trampled grass. I think I will enjoy seeing the pros miss far enough at Chambers Bay to be in trampled sand. If they thought the rough at Oakmont was penal, wait until they find their ball a the bottom of a foot print in the soft sand at Chambers Bay. When I found my self in such a position, I violated the 14 club rule and resorted to the hand wedge. But, then I was playing for fun, and not keeping score.

How far offline do the pro's have to miss to get in this trampled sand -- i.e. how often do you think this will come up in the Open? 

Not that far, The whole course is built on that grey quicksand.  I think that most of the problems will occur with wind effected shots over corners.  #4, 6, 7 maybe 13.  The sand was used on PNW courses for years, including my home course, and fried eggs were the norm rather than the exception. 

I am playing Chambers for my 6th time tomorrow, last time out the course had already firmed and improved over how it played last summer.  The ground game, even in December, was much more in play.  Greens had also improved. 

Superintendents might want to comment on methods that could be used to firm the sand up.  The Chambers crew removed huge amounts of invasive plant growth that would have created some stability. The removal created some soft spots.  Crews have also been lining green side bunkers as the soft sand was allowing for gravel and rock to rise through it.  The screening of these materials during construction was a very expensive part of the project. 

[PCCraig]

This is a shocking move to me. I can think of 15 courses that would be better.

[Steve_Lovett]

Pat - please share which 15 that would be better, and why. 

I don't know whether it's a good thing or not - but it's a stunning site and I'm interested in how the USGA will set it up and how it will play for the best players in the world.  It's unique, and it's beauty and unpredictability will make for an interesting tournament.

[Sean Leary]

Obviously they wanted a course in the PNW and it is the only one possible.

Any word on what the second course will be for the AM in 2010? No offense to Cos, but I hope it is not the Home Course. Gold Mountain would be better assuming they want to keep it public, and it really isn't that far..

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I think the USGA would think that Gold Mountian is too far away.  I actually think that Gold Mountain or Home Course is a toss up.  Hell Sean, lets do it at Oakbrook or Fircrest.  They are both closer. And both provide a strong test of golf, Fircrest as a PGA stop years ago and Oakbrook having withstood the Pacific Am and the Washington Open.

Gold Mountain is probably more inconsistent with weak holes at 4,14,17,and 18.  And very good par threes and a strong 7 and 9. 

Home course is more consistent with fewer weak holes and not as many really strong holes.  It does posess prodigious length at 7400 possible yards.

After all of the commentary, I think you would find the competition is between the Home Course because of it being owned by the association and Tacoma Country and Golf as a reward for having held so many previous USGA events. 

Sean I don't care where the second venue is, I'm still trying to get over the shock of having Chambers get the Am and the Open.  That may take until 2015 to actually believe.  We'll have to have some of that conversation over a round of golf and a beverage.

[Steve_Lovett]

The discussion of worth PNW courses to host a US Am or US Open is interesting.  Given the proportions of those events, the possible options have become very limited indeed.

I recall discussions/propaganda in the early-mid 80's when it was new that Bear Creek in Woodinville was created to be a course worthy of consderation to host a major tournament.