Will the Golfing Public Embrace Old MacDonald?

[Phil Benedict]

The MacDonald family of courses is mostly private and they don't play majors on these courses.  For the golfing public at large, the Old Mac concept is pretty esoteric.  Unlike Bandon and Pacific Dunes, which are the closest courses to a true links experience in North America, it won't have the cache of a seaside location.  The architecture will have to stand on its own merit.

There's a large CBM GCA fan club but it probably isn't large enough to ensure success.  

[J Sadowsky]

I think it could work (NGLA seems to do well amongst raters) fine, though it will probably not reach Bandon or Pacific in terms of prestige.

Of course, a lot depends on how this works.  "Replica" courses can be big hits (ie NGLA), but of course they can be misses.  Can't really judge it until we see it.

[George Pazin]

I think most won't even realize the connection, they'll just love it because it will be a well-designed seaside course.

[wsmorrison]

Depending upon the quality of the course, of course, I think people are prone to accepting something even if they don't fully understand its origin or it looks relatively unusual especially when it is origin is presented in mystery and exclusivity.  

[Joe Bentham]

I think most won't even realize the connection, they'll just love it because it will be a well-designed seaside course.

Couldn't have said it better myself.  Although I think a better question would be 'Does it matter if they don't'?

[JMorgan]

Phil, I almost started this thread after reading your replies on Patrick's Topography and Templates thread.  I think the public will really take to Old Macdonald, because, as you said in the other thread, the public has not been exposed to the architecture.  I'm sure there will be greater "like-dislike" polarization vs. other Bandon courses.  But who knows ... perhaps this version of MacRaynor will be something altogether unexpected.  

[Andy Troeger]

Isn't this a little dependent on how good the golf course ends up being? I realize the expectations are deservedly high but still...

[Peter Pallotta]

Phil -

I'm guessing that at Old Macdonald the templates holes will be reversed engineered, i.e. they will not build upon what MacDonald did at, say, NGLA, but instead will harken back to the originals that inspired him.

And since those originals were not originally templates but simply golf holes built to fit the land that proved wonderful and enduring tests of golf, I'm guessing that the template holes at Old MacDonald will look like nothing else that's come before.

I think that's probably the strength of the concept, i.e. for those who don't know about MacDonald, the golf holes will test their games in traditional (and thus refreshingly modern) ways; while for those who do know about him, that test of golf will also be a lesson in how formal functions can meld with natural forms.

All guess work, of course. I've never even been out there to play the existing courses.

Peter        

I think I should've reverse engineered this post. By the way, I'm not sure if I've got the meaning of the phrase right; I heard it on a commercial.

[Phil Benedict]

Phil, I almost started this thread after reading your replies on Patrick's Mountain Lake thread.  I think the public will really take to Old Macdonald, because, as you said in the other thread, the public has not been exposed to the architecture.  I'm sure there will be greater "like-dislike" polarization vs. other Bandon courses.  But who knows ... perhaps this version of MacRaynor will be something altogether unexpected.  

The whole point of MacRaynor is that you know what to expect if you are an architecture buff.  However, to succeed commercially the course has to appeal to people who don't know what to expect, because they never heard of a Redan or Eden and may have never seen a course with such a geometric look.  

[Mark Hissey]

I'm quite confident that Tom and Jim will produce something really special at OM.

In fact, there's not much I'm more sure of...

[TEPaul]

Phil:

I'm not too sure a thread discussing how Old Macdonald will fare is the same thing as asking why golfers love Macdonald/Raynor architecture and the National School style but anyway.

I wonder if Old C.B. Macdonald would embrace Keyser's Old Macdonald. I think old C.B. got pretty ticked at everybody and everything for various reasons and about the only thing he embraced in the last twenty years of his life was a bunch of show girls at his Hen House on his estate overlooking NGLA.

[jeffwarne]

The "golfing public" won't ever see Old MacDonald.
It's in Bandon, and most who make that trek are significantly more sophisticated than most of the golfing public.

My guess is, with the people involved it will be an excellent product but its' popularity will not be as great as Pacific Dunes or bandon Dunes due to less proximity to spectacular ocean front.
Additionally, I think the more sophisticated the customer, the more they will appreciate it, but it will be a bit like Bandon Trails with wide divergences of opinion.

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes and alot of people who don't like it will say they do to appear more sophisticated.  The biarritz template stinks.  

[jeffwarne]

John,
Is it OK for me to like it if I don't know a biarritz from an Eden.

I love Yeaman's Hall-always have-even when nobody (at least not those of us growing up in the south)had ever heard of a Redan.

I didn't know #7 at Sleepy Hollow was a reverse Redan .
despite having played it over 100 times (until I read it on this site)

Perhaps one can appreciate template holes more when one doesn't know that they are. (so they don't walk off an otherwise great hole mumbling and comparing it to the original)

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,

The only holes I don't think people will like are the ones people quit building because everyone hated them.

[jeffwarne]

John,
Which is precisely why some courses/holes should never be restored.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sadly when you have 19 architects and only 18 holes something is going to get comprimised.

[jeffwarne]

John.
That leaves one for the CLUBHOUSE-the real star at my place

[TEPaul]

I have no real idea what some of the visceral reasons for it are but it seems to me a lot of people are just turned on by big bold man-made golf architectural features of the National School ilk. And add to that most all of them are set up in various ways (angles and slopes and such) that really do work pretty great for golf shots and golf strategies.

Let's not forget that Macdonald didn't exactly invent that stuff, he really did kind of take a safe or "poll" route and asked in magazine competition that polled some pretty respected people what the most respected par 3, par 4 and par 5 holes were over there in GB before he did his NGLA.

In that sense he sort of insured the "test of time" component!

[John Kavanaugh]

John.
That leaves one for the CLUBHOUSE-the real star at my place

Or they can let Olson do the maintenance shed, Klein do the library, Bahto the mens grill and Doak the golf course.  Now that might be a course the public could embrace.

[jeffwarne]

What's great is with all these specialist architects (golf course, clubhouse) is you can do more renovations which leads to inevitable resorations.

We opened our clubhouse last season We're renovating the kitchen this winter.(to what we told the architect we needed all along).
My pro shop opens in April. Next winter, no doubt, we will be doing a bagroom renovation (to you guessed it-what we told the architect we needed all along)

the cycle continues-nice work if you can get it.

[TEPaul]

"Perhaps one can appreciate template holes more when one doesn't know that they are."

Jeff:

How about that? And then even if they appreciated them when they didn't know what they are, when they come to find out what they are then they need to critically compare them to something else, criticize them and learn not to like them for reasons like that.

That makes a lot of sense, don't you think?  

John Kavanaugh might be taking that kind of odd inclination to a new and sophisticated level. He probably liked some of these kinds of holes but when he finds out that a lot of other people like them too he has to then find reasons to criticize those holes.

Human nature really is a hoot, don't you think?

Frankly, all of this may actually be falling into that mysterious realm of "controversy" that some of the great old architects like Macdonald and Mackenzie actually wrote about as a good thing and something that should be promoted in golf and architecture!!

If that's the case----with that we may be able to say, at this point, that the more things change the more they stay the same!  

[jeffwarne]

TEPaul,
I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I played the Redan in North Berwick (one of my favorite courses)-having played so many versions of the Redan before.

Kind've "reverse template hole syndrome"

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

Funny you say that about your first impression of North Berwick's redan.

I've only played that course once, back in the summer of '03. I was playing it with the USGA's Craig A and most certainly the both of us are into that old architecture and we were loving the course as we stepped onto the 4th tee.

We had a bit of a wait on the 4th tee and Craig turned around and looked behind him and said to me: "Why in the world would anybody design an enormous mound out in the middle of nowhere with bunkers in it?"

I looked around and said: "I have no idea Craig".

At that point Craig teed off on the 4th and hit the rather attractive Mrs Majors ahead of us right in the ass which was the first of about three times he did that to her during that round.

So, finally we got back around to the 14th green and coming of that as we approached the 15 tee we realized---Holy shit, what we were looking at behind us on the 4th tee was part of the famous redan.

WELL, don't you think we felt like a bunch of smucks?  

[Phil Benedict]

Phil:

I'm not too sure a thread discussing how Old Macdonald will fare is the same thing as asking why golfers love Macdonald/Raynor architecture and the National School style but anyway.

I wonder if Old C.B. Macdonald would embrace Keyser's Old Macdonald. I think old C.B. got pretty ticked at everybody and everything for various reasons and about the only thing he embraced in the last twenty years of his life was a bunch of show girls at his Hen House on his estate overlooking NGLA.

Tom,

I realize this isn't what I suggested on Patrick's other thread.  I decided to go at the topic (the inherent appeal of the National style) in an indirect way.