Was Raynor the ideal architect for flat South/Central Florida ?

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

A few points of clarification. Please read my above post #36 made this morning at 5:30 I clarified my parameters. Please note that I made no specific reference to which tee I was referring nor the part of the bunker to which I was referring and I apologize. I was not being vague on purpose. Post #36 on this thread should clarify. You preserved my quote, tell me where I was specific in it. Post #36 is.

None of the tees pictured are the forward tee on that hole, nor is the tee shown in the picture the one to which I was referring. The forward tee is about 30 yards in front of, and 30 yards left of the white tee shown in the picture, presenting a much different angle to the lesser skilled player.

I should let you know that my analysis comes not from that picture, but from the nature of my work during the course of my 7 month employment and internship at Mountain Lake. I've spent more time at Mountain Lake than most of the members who post on GCA, I'm sure. In fact, I've just received my W-2, and based on my pay rate, that is over 1,000 hours in 2007.

Why do you think I'm wrong?

From the picture, can you tell how much distance is between the middle bunker and the bunker on the left? What the elevation change between those two bunkers is?

If you guys are serious about this infantile betting, then fine. Pat, you've already skewed the parameters before asking me to clarify. Nowhere did I state in the quote you preserved as to my reference frames.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A few points of clarification.

Please read my above post #36 made this morning at 5:30 I clarified my parameters.

Kyle, your post # 36 is irrelevant to my bet with Mike Christensen.

I made a post, # 22, which included a picture from # 13 tee, in which I stated that the picture looked pretty flat to me.

In your post # 23 you stated that there was a 10 foot elevation change between the tee and the bunkers.

I disputed the 10 foot elevation change from that tee to the bunker.

Michael Christensen, a Mountain Lake expert, supported your position that a 10 foot differential existed.

And that is the basis for the wager.

I'm not interested in subsequent clarifications on your part, they're not germane to the bet, which was based solely on posts # 22, # 23 and # 27[/color]

Please note that I made no specific reference to which tee I was referring nor the part of the bunker to which I was referring and I apologize.

Kyle, I reposted the original picture, you referenced the tee and bunker in that picture, and that picture is the basis of the wager.[/color]

I was not being vague on purpose.

I understand that.
[/color]

Post #36 on this thread should clarify.

I'm not interested in clarification, I'm only interested in the posts germane to the wager, posts # 22, # 23 and # 27.[/color]

You preserved my quote, tell me where I was specific in it.


You reference the tee, clearly visible in the picture and the bunker clearly visible in the picture.  That's pretty clear.

Stop trying to give Michael Christensen wiggle room, he's a big boy, remember, he only gets out of bed for 5 figure wagers.[/color]

Post #36 is.


Immaterial to the wager[/color]

None of the tees pictured are the forward tee on that hole, nor is the tee shown in the picture the one to which I was referring.

Kyle, a picture was posted of a tee, then rough, then fairway then bunkers.  You said "from the tee to the bunkers about 10 feet".  You weren't referencing phantom tees or bunkers.
The photo is exhibit "A", It was the photo that I commented on when I said, "THIS looks pretty flat to me", referencing the photo I reposted.  I wasn't referencing phantom tees or bunkers, I was referencing the tee and bunker/s in the photo.[/color]

The forward tee is about 30 yards in front of, and 30 yards left of the white tee shown in the picture, presenting a much different angle to the lesser skilled player.

Again, I'm not interested in what's NOT in the photo.
I'm only interested in what's IN the photo, that was the basis of my comment that, "this looks pretty flat to me"

When you stated that there's a 10 foot elevation change between THE tee, the clear reference is to the tee in the photo, not an invisible tee.[/color]

I should let you know that my analysis comes not from that picture, but from the nature of my work during the course of my 7 month employment and internship at Mountain Lake.


Again, not to be impolite, but, I don't care about the basis of your analysis.  I only care about the land pictured in the photo, THE TEE and the bunker/s.  Having traversed that land twice, less than three days prior to making my post, and being completely sober from that point in time to current date, I'm content to rely on my powers of observation and stand by my statement that there is NOT a 10 foot elevation change between THE tee and the bunker.[/color]

I've spent more time at Mountain Lake than most of the members who post on GCA, I'm sure. In fact, I've just received my W-2, and based on my pay rate, that is over 1,000 hours in 2007.

Kyle, I suspect that you didn't mean what you posted with respect to that photo, be it through oversight or different points of reference, but, I'm only interested in the photo and the points of measurement, THE tee and the bunker.

You may know what you meant, but, I know what I meant, and I was crystal clear in my remark that there is NOT a 10 foot elevation differential between the forward tee in the photo and the bunker.

If Mike Christensen wants to be a wise guy and a gambler, let him fend for himself, without benefit of you clarifying what you meant but didn't post prior to post # 27.[/color]

Why do you think I'm wrong?

It doesn't matter WHY I think you're wrong[/color]

From the picture, can you tell how much distance is between the middle bunker and the bunker on the left? What the elevation change between those two bunkers is?

I'm not interested in those distances, they're irrelevant to the wager.

Do you know Michael Christensen ?
Did you work with him or are you friendly with him ?[/color]

If you guys are serious about this infantile betting, then fine. Pat, you've already skewed the parameters before asking me to clarify.

It's not important if you clarify, it's after the fact.
The only posts that form the basis of the wager are posts # 22, # 23 and # 27.  Anything posted after post # 27 is irrelevant to the wager.[/color]

Nowhere did I state in the quote you preserved as to my reference frames.

Of course you did.
The reference frame is the PHOTO, and your reference to the TEE.  A tee in the photo, not an invisible tee or a tee on another hole.  Same with the bunkers.  This is between Michael and myself, and I was crystal clear, AND, I clearly defined the wager for him when he asked me to.
It's my defining of the wager that's the critical issue, not your subsequent attempts at clarification of what you MEANT to state but DIDN'T.

This wager doesn't concern you.  Please refrain from commenting further since the perameters of the wager were clearly established in PRINT in post # 44.

Thanks[/color]

[TEPaul]

TEPaul,
"To answer your question, why don't you reread what Kyle has written and then reread what I've written and tell me where we disagree.
If you'd like to jump on the bet I have with Mike Christensen, I'd be happy to have you make a visit to the vault, in fact, I'd be happy to accompany you when you make the withdrawal."


Patrick:

It would seem you disagree on the difference in elevation on areas and architectural features on the 13th hole, or do you think you and Kyle Harris are in agreement on that?

I have no interest in some wager but I would be interested in the difference in elevation of the areas mentioned.  

I'd be willing to accept the elevation information on a topo map. How about you?

[Michael Christensen]

I have met Kyle once...at the Dixie Cup this year.

admit you are wrong PM...we are not going off a picture...we are going off what is real....I knew you would try to weasle your way out of this...you are being shown the fraud you are.

Check mate green ink professor....

[Michael Moore]

Dear Pat and Michael -

I think it would be exciting to see 10 grand change hands, but Kyle is correct - wagering on a difference in elevation between an area (teeing ground) and a line segment (front of bunker) is meaningless.

You need to agree on a point on the teeing ground and a point on the bunker. I have some current high resolution aerials of Mountain Lake if you need assistance.

[TEPaul]

Michael:

They don't need an aerial, they need a topographical survey map. Of course if the survey map says there is a 10 foot elevation change between that tee and whatever point out on the hole they're talking about, Patrick Mucci will probably say his eye is more accurate than a surveyor's map.  

I think most of us know that even when Patrick realizes he's wrong about something he's totally incapable of admitting it and most of us should know, by this point, that Patrick is wrong approximately 98% of the time.

When Patrick is actually right about something it probably should be referred to on here as "A Black Swan Event"---eg a random and unlikely event.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have met Kyle once...at the Dixie Cup this year.

admit you are wrong PM...

If I'm so wrong I'm sure you wouldn't mind doubling the bet ?And, since you're such a big gambler and odds maker, I'm sure you'd be glad to give me 4-1 odds, seeing as how you're so sure that I'm so wrong.[/color]

we are not going off a picture...

Of course we're not.
The picture merely establishes the reference points for the measurement, the forward tee in the picture and the front bunker.  Stop focusing on the pretty pictures and read the words that accompany them.[/color]

we are going off what is real....

That's correct, that's what I stated.
That the elevation differential between the front tee pictured and the near bunker isn't 10 feet, which you claim it is.[/color]

I knew you would try to weasle your way out of this


I don't consider doubling the bet weaseling out of anything.
I was crystal clear on my position and the bet.  You're the one who can't read and/or comprehend.
All you had to do was have someone read posts # 22, # 23, # 27 and # 44 and you would have had a clear understanding of the issue and the bet.

Now, do we have a bet or are you going to sneak away with your tail between your leg and your other foot in your mouth ?
[/color]

...you are being shown the fraud you are.

We'll see who's the fraud and who's the fool.

Just make your check out big shot.[/color]

Check mate green ink professor....


For you my arrogant friend  [/color]

[Michael Christensen]

TE Paul nailed this on the head......his last post(s) have shown what a jack in the box MLake expert PM is......

and itt would be great for GCA ratings if I did increase the wager...but there is an inherent problem...YOU PM keep changing the parameters....you will always move the line so it can be blurred in your favor...Kyle has expressed his view, I backed him up (from my experience of playing 10 to 15 times more than you have at MLake).....nothing has changed except the fact you want to measure elevation from the front tee, or the middle of the front tee, or the front right corner of the men's tee..etc, etc,etc...

It is obvious you are setting yourself up not to pay...no matter how much evidence is produced to contradict your contradiction of Kyle....it has now become a complete waste of time

You are a GCA bully...98% of the people are afraid to take a position counter to yours....I am one of the 2% and happily will take you on when you are dead wrong

[Kyle Harris]

You know, there's a damn fine golf hole being blatantly neglected here.

The 13th at Mountain Lake is a case study in visual deception, lines of charm and play strategy on every shot in a variety of conditions....

[TEPaul]

Michael Christensen:

You know Pat Mucci really isn't a bully at all but apparently his mouth and his typing fingers are.


You know what I mean, I'm sure. It's one of those Dr Strangelove kind of things where the poor guy thinks one thing but he just can't help his arm giving a "Heil Hitler" salute no matter how hard he tries to grab it and reign it in.

[TEPaul]

"The 13th at Mountain Lake is a case study in visual deception, lines of charm and play strategy on every shot in a variety of conditions...."

Yes it is Kyle. That tee shot is one of the best "low profile" visual deception I've ever seen and on the second shot there's just  so many interesting things you can do. That kind of approach design is just another good reasons that course needs to use as much consistent firm and fast as they possibly can. That kind of thing is the "Klieg" lights on that architecture.  
 
 

[Kyle Harris]

"The 13th at Mountain Lake is a case study in visual deception, lines of charm and play strategy on every shot in a variety of conditions...."

Yes it is Kyle. That tee shot is one of the best "low profile" visual deception I've ever seen and on the second shot there's just  so many interesting things you can do. That kind of approach design is just another good reasons that course needs to use as much consistent firm and fast as they possibly can. That kind of thing is the "Klieg" lights on that architecture.  
 
 

One of the great things about the hole is that even the long hitter is confounded by angles and hazards. A carry of around 250 yards from the back tee will find rough or bunkers through the fairway unless the drive is aimed at the Palm Tree to the right of all the fairway bunkers visible in the picture from John Mayhugh. It can be very confusing for the golfer to have to aim all the way down the rough to an invisible fairway and right of all visual clues as to the direction of the hole, even with experience.

Furthermore, the left fairway bunker is approx. 50 yards from the center fairway bunker, though they can appear next to each other. In fact, those bunkers flank the widest part of the fairway and the left fairway bunker is THROUGH the fairway further down the hole.  

All that and we haven't even discussed the approach, the potential bail out points, the short game options around the green, or the putting itself...

The hole has stood the test of techonology very well, and I would argue that today's equipment offers the golfer more options than ever.

[John_Cullum]

I am quite pleased to report that I experienced play of the very hole in the company of Pat Mucci. A delightful experience, and I will be surprised if that hole proves to drop 10 feet from front tee to bunker, no matter what a topo map shows.

[Kyle Harris]

I am quite pleased to report that I experienced play of the very hole in the company of Pat Mucci. A delightful experience, and I will be surprised if that hole proves to drop 10 feet from front tee to bunker, no matter what a topo map shows.

From the White Tee in the picture to the bunker is 6 feet as per Pat's criteria (which were not mine in my original statement).

Put it to bed, gentlemen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TE Paul nailed this on the head......his last post(s) have shown what a jack in the box MLake expert PM is......


Michael Christensen,

You should know that as TEPaul's legal guardian he does bear some resentment toward me, especially at months end when I refuse to approve expenditures and/or release funds.[/color]

and itt would be great for GCA ratings if I did increase the wager...but there is an inherent problem...YOU PM keep changing the parameters....

I haven't changed the perameters.
Haven't you been reading each post ? ......  carefully ?
Here's the quote in post # 44 where I outlined the perameters.  What changes are you referencing ?
Or, are you just looking to escape your arrogant impetuosity ?

I stated what the bet was, previously, but, to make it cyrstal clear, it's that the elevation change from the front tee to the nearest bunker ISN'T 10 feet as Kyle claimed.

The picture below shows the area in question.

[/b][/color]

you will always move the line so it can be blurred in your favor...

But the line hasn't moved, it's been rock steady, crystal clear from the outset.  See replies # 22, # 23, # 27 and # 44.

The only thing that's moved is your confidence.
You're waivering, hedging and dodging as the moment of truth approaches[/color]

Kyle has expressed his view, I backed him up

Right, and I challenged Kyle's view and accepted your bet.

Hence, you shouldn't have any trouble ponying up the 10K.

Kyle was wrong about the elevation change between the forward tee pictured and the front of the nearest bunker, and so are you.  So stop making excuses and dancing around the issue and get the check.[/color]

(from my experience of playing 10 to 15 times more than you have at MLake).....

It's obvious that your powers of observation and understanding of spacial relationships aren't as keen as mine, or, alternatively, you should give me 10-1 or 15-1 odds, since you have so much more experience and are such an expert on the lay of the land from that tee to the nearest bunker.

Stop backing away from the bet and pony up.[/color]

nothing has changed except the fact you want to measure elevation from the front tee, or the middle of the front tee, or the front right corner of the men's tee..etc, etc,etc...

Well, a few things have changed.
BUT... not the perameters of the bet.

Posts # 22, # 23, # 27 and # 44 are crystal clear as to what the reference and measuring points are.  NOTHING about those points and posts has changed.  Feel free to reread them as often as you like. They don't change.  

With respect to change as it applies to you, your arrogance has taken quite a blow, causing you to waiver and attempt to weasel your way out of a bet that was made crystal clear in a number of posts.

As to the other things that have changed,
Members have contacted me and stated that there is NO 10 foot elevation change between those two points, and, that I made a great bet.

They also stated that you'd never pay off, which is something I knew from the outset.[/color]

It is obvious you are setting yourself up not to pay...no matter how much evidence is produced to contradict your contradiction of Kyle....

What evidence ?  Could you repost it ?  I must have missed it.

Not one iota of evidence has been presented/produced that refutes my position.  So where's this evidence you allude to, in your dilusional head ?

And now ....... are you sitting down ?

Kyle Harris agrees with me.

Now, you're out there on a limb all by yourself, bigshot.
[/color]

it has now become a complete waste of time

I, and others, knew you'd resort to that tactic.
That you'd renege on the bet.

Only a moron would claim that there's a 10 foot elevation differential between the tee in the photo and the front of the nearest bunker.

And, only a horse's ass would claim tht he's such a big shot that he won't get out of bed for less than $ 10,000.[/color]

You are a GCA bully...98% of the people are afraid to take a position counter to yours....I am one of the 2% and happily will take you on when you are dead wrong.

You're a schmuck, coward, phony and a blowhard.
(see, I can name call too  )

You claim that you're taking me on while you're running away from the bet as fast as you can.

The betting window will remain perpetually open for you.

Let me know when you have the courage of your convictions and want to take it.
[/color]

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

For the last time, and don't tell me it's irrelevant because it's not and NOT ONE OF YOU asked me for clarification before making assumptions as to what I meant.

What you assumed about my statement and what I meant were two different things.

Michael is out of line by patronizing you with "Mr. ML Expert," but DO NOT say that I was wrong because you interpreted what I said differently than how I meant it.

This could have all been avoided if either of you had the decency to ask me more specifically like Scott Wood did.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle,

And when I post a photo and state that the land in the photo looks flat to me, don't tell me about elevation changes not depicted or evidenced in the photo.

The area IN the photo, NOT areas outside of the photo was the SOLE focus of my comment.

This looks flat to me, and having walked it twice in less than three days since making that observation, I stand by my observation and my remark.



That other sections of the property not depicted in the photo have elevation changes, small or large, has NO relevance with respect to my comment that specifically referenced the above photo and the land depicted in it.

Wayno,

What do you think of Raynor's flat bottomed bunkers when the floor of the bunker can be seen from 150-200+ yards ?

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

You're being incredibly obtuse. I wasn't even looking at the photo when I made my first comment. I was TALKING ABOUT THE HOLE.

You brought the photo in, not me.

Drop it. This ego clash bullshit is exactly why scotch pines get planted in the dumbest of places on golf courses and green contours are allowed to be softened with speeds run amok.

Two people have personal differences and use the golf course (and those employed to maintain it) as their pawns to prove who and what is right. In the end, only the golf course suffers.

This discussion is a microcosm - you and Michael have your differences and discussion of a world class golf hole suffers as a result.

[SPDB]

I love Pat, but I've been party to this kind of wager before.

The fluid criteria play.

In what has to be one of the longer running wagers on GCA, I
once bet Patrick that #6 at The Creek was not a skyline green. He took the bet, but magically the bet somehow morphed from what is there today to what was there when the hole was designed, and what was "intended"  by CBM/Raynor.

It's happened here too. A generic observation by Kyle Harris about distance from "the tee" to the bunkers in the picture
somehow morphed into specific measurements from the front
of the tee pictured to the first bunker. This specificity
was only supplied by Patrick, not Kyle, as he's protested here on this thread.

Hand it to him. He's crafty. Don't play mumblety peg with him
- he'll steal your leg.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You're being incredibly obtuse. I wasn't even looking at the photo when I made my first comment. I was TALKING ABOUT THE HOLE.

I wouldn't know that.
I can't read your mind, I can only read what you type.[/color]

You brought the photo in, not me.

That's correct, in reply # 22 I reintroduced the photo.
But, in reply # 23 you commented on it.

This is what you posted in reply # 23, which followed my posting of the picture in reply # 22.
[/color]

The elevation change from tee to green on that hole is about 25 feet and [size=4x]from the tee to the bunkers about 10 feet. [/size]

When you made that statement on the heels of a photo depicting the 13th tee and the fairway bunkers on # 13, any prudent person would inextricably connect that which appears in the photo with your comments relative to the tee and the bunker which are in the photo.[/color]

Drop it. This ego clash bullshit is exactly why scotch pines get planted in the dumbest of places on golf courses and green contours are allowed to be softened with speeds run amok.

I've NEVER understood the rationale behind planting Scotch Pines.[/color]

Two people have personal differences and use the golf course (and those employed to maintain it) as their pawns to prove who and what is right.

I don't have any personal differences with Michael Christensen, I don't even know him, so this isn't a tug of war over the golf course, employees or architects.

However, I'd like to meet someone who doesn't get out of bed for less than $ 10,000.  I knew a woman like that years ago, when I was young, but, I couldn't afford her.

This is merely a debate about elevation changes from the 13th tee in the photo to the nearest bunker in the fairway with some colorful language and descriptions thrown in.[/color]

In the end, only the golf course suffers.

I don't see how ML is going to suffer because Michael and I disagree on the elevation change between the reference points cited.[/color]

This discussion is a microcosm - you and Michael have your differences and discussion of a world class golf hole suffers as a result.

That's absurd.
I don't have any differences with Michael, I don't even know him.

As to world class golf holes, I believe I was the one who started an abundant number of threads on Mountain Lake and a number of its holes. Mountain Lake is a golf course that I greatly enjoyed.[/color]

SPDB,

I'll give you $ 1,000 of the $ 10,000, without any admission of agreement.

[John_Cullum]

Kyle

Please help clear up the existence of the red clay. I noticed that immediately and commented to Jeff Goldman about it. Are you saying they brought red clay in to build the road, or is it just a very isolated patch and the road happens to be there?

[Michael Christensen]

someone finally cleared up the whole issue...as Kyle said "Pat brought the picture in, not me"........EXACTLY!  I know Kyle doesn't want to be the arbiter between right and wrong, so I feel for him

I was talking about the hole too.......NOT THE F'N pic.....but I guess your one weekend there makes you king and all the rest of us pawns......

Now I need to get to bed, as I have an early flight to the city of brotherly love in the AM...going to see my beloved Orange get crushed by Nova on Sat.....maybe you can take Acela Express down to Philly and TE can arrange for a duel at Gulph Mills!  

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle

Please help clear up the existence of the red clay. I noticed that immediately and commented to Jeff Goldman about it. Are you saying they brought red clay in to build the road, or is it just a very isolated patch and the road happens to be there?

Where?

Most of the maintenance road is actually a red sand. I don't know of any spots on the golf course that are red clay so I'd imagine any red clay is just for the maintenance road.

[Patrick_Mucci]

someone finally cleared up the whole issue...as Kyle said "Pat brought the picture in, not me"........EXACTLY!  I know Kyle doesn't want to be the arbiter between right and wrong, so I feel for him

You're wrong again.
John Mayhugh first introduced the picture, not me.

I merely commented, when looking at the photo, that,  "....this looks pretty flat to me."[/color]

I was talking about the hole too.......NOT THE F'N pic.....


That's a cop out and you know it.
And, it's absolutely not true, both you and Kyle were referencing the elevation change between the tee and the bunker.  How many times do I have to quote what was stated ?
Here it is again.

The elevation change from tee to green on that hole is about 25 feet and [size=4x]from the tee to the bunkers about 10 feet.[/size]


Then, you said, "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
having played MLake 10 to 15 times more than our resident expert PM...I have to agree with Kyle on his analysis.


The points of reference are clear, from the tee to the bunkers.  The elevation change is clear, 10 feet.

So don't give us this absurd nonsense that you were talking about the hole.[/color]

but I guess your one weekend there makes you king and all the rest of us pawns......

Here's the really funny part.

You claim to having played ML 10-15 times more than I have.
Here's your quote:

having played MLake 10 to 15 times more than our resident expert PM...

So, you've played ML 20 or 30 times, YET, you didn't even recognize the hole in the photo.  You're some expert.

As I said in an earlier post, it's apparent that my powers of observation are much keener than yours.  Here's your quote:


[size=4x]Now what hole are you claiming doesn't have the elevation change that Kyle challenged you on[/size]....just so we have your facts straight for all to see.

You're some expert on ML.  You didn't even know what hole was depicted in that photo.  You didn't even know what hole John Mayhugh had posted in his photo, which hole I reposted in the photo and which hole Kyle was referencing , so don't tell us that you were talking about the hole, YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HOLE IT WAS.

It's apparent that I could fly over ML at 35,000 feet and have a better recollection and understanding of the architecture than you.[/color]

Now I need to get to bed, as I have an early flight to the city of brotherly love in the AM...going to see my beloved Orange get crushed by Nova on Sat.....maybe you can take Acela Express down to Philly and TE can arrange for a duel at Gulph Mills!  

I knew you'd run away from the bet, I just didn't know you'd fly out of town so quickly.

I spoke to TEPaul at length yesterday.
You know, end of the month accounting and the like.
Even TEPaul, who needs his faithful companion and guide dog Coorshaw to lead him around golf courses, knew that there was NO 10 foot elevation change between the tee and the bunker.  AND, TEPaul knew it was the 13th hole, a hole that you're apparently unfamiliar with.

Perhaps you skipped it on all of those 20-30 rounds you played at ML

Wear a long coat to the Syracuse vs Villanova game.
You wouldn't want the fans to see the tail between your legs.
[/color]

[Kyle Harris]

13th at Mountain Lake, July 2006.