Was Raynor the ideal architect for flat South/Central Florida ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

With its low lying terrain, high water table and heavy rains does Raynor's style, especially his constructed style, with elevated footpads for tees and greens, provide the ideal functionality required by that environment ?

Wouldn't courses that embraced and hugged the natural terrain perish when exposed to those elements, over time ?

[J Sadowsky]

From what I can tell, Clifton, Lee, and Garl are the ideal designers for Florida.  Otherwise, why would every other course be designed by these 3?    

[Kyle Henderson]

Pete Dye is another worthy candidate, no (e.g. Sawgrass Stadiu )? Dick Wilson certainly popularized the idea of digging lakes and using the collected soil to build up playing surfaces in that region (to my knowledge... I've never been to Florida).

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

How many different threads are you going to start to promote the work of Raynor?  Railroad beds?  Flat land?  Mountain Lake?

Was he the ideal architect for the flat lands of Florida?  Of course not, he was one of many.  

Too bad you could not see what Flynn did at Boca Raton South.  That land had no more than 10 feet of elevation change.  Flynn used sandy waste areas, mounds, wide fairways and wind to create the angles necessary for strategic design and interest.  I'll show you the drawings and photographs someday.

You can see what Flynn did at Indian Creek, though the bunker maintenance varies from Flynn's initial style.  Why don't you go over there and check it out.  That was built on perfectly flat ground on a man-made island 3' above sea level.  You will be interested to see how Flynn's greens were built and how he literally shaped the land so that every contour is by design.

Have you considered the amount of top-dressing courses get over the decades, particularly given the grasses used in the south?  I wonder how much elevation has been added over the years.

Boca Raton South 8th



Boca Raton South 9th



Boca Raton South 15th

[John Mayhugh]

Interesting question.  After playing Mountain Lake I wondered why there weren't more Raynor courses in Florida.  The engineered style certainly does seem to fit the land an architect generally has to work with.  Ideal architect, though?  There probably is no such thing.

Mr. Morrison
Does Raynor's work need promotion? I realize that his style is not for everyone, but it deserves as much discussion as this Flynn guy you're always talking about  .

[wsmorrison]

John,

I was remarking on Pat starting 3 threads on the first page extolling Raynor.  I don't think Raynor's work needs promotion either, it is highly regarded and acclaimed on this site.  I think Raynor deserves a great deal of discussion.  Unfortunately, too often it is the same party line without criticism or in-depth observations.  The same can be said for MacKenzie.  This site seems to have a biased view of a number of architects.  If others present a different view, it is bound to be assailed.

Given that this thread asks the question whether or not Raynor was the ideal architect for flat Florida (I agree with you that there is no such thing) it seems reasonable to demonstrate, with examples of other architects, that he cannot be considered the ideal.  The notion itself is flawed and I was simply presenting evidence to support that.  

I wish everyone would not hold over me bringing Flynn into discussions where appropriate as if it is a passionate push for Flynn's acceptance.  I know him best, few know him at all.  It isn't a blind love by any means that I introduce him into various discussions.  Does Phil get criticized for bringing Tillinghast into discussions?  I don't have as broad an understanding of architecture as some do on this site.  Certainly not to the extent I have in depth as I do with Flynn.  If I think Flynn relates to a subject, I bring him up as a scarce resource.  Would you rather I didn't?

Wayne

[Bradley Anderson]

My vote would go to Mackenzie or Colt as the ideal candidates for places in the world where sand is the predominate native soil, because their bunkering was built to look like the grass is exposed to underlying sand.

As far engineering for the elements goes, I would have to agree that Seth Raynor was very talented in that discipline. But I saw an old Alison drainage schematic last week that was very sophisticated. These guys knew what they were doing when it came to drainage.

[John Mayhugh]

John,

I was remarking on Pat starting 3 threads on the first page extolling Raynor.  I don't think Raynor's work needs promotion either, it is highly regarded and acclaimed on this site.  I think Raynor deserves a great deal of discussion.  Unfortunately, too often it is the same party line without criticism or in-depth observations.  The same can be said for MacKenzie.  This site seems to have a biased view of a number of architects.  If others present a different view, it is bound to be assailed.

Given that this thread asks the question whether or not Raynor was the ideal architect for flat Florida (I agree with you that there is no such thing) it seems reasonable to demonstrate, with examples of other architects, that he cannot be considered the ideal.  The notion itself is flawed and I was simply presenting evidence to support that.  

I wish everyone would not hold over me bringing Flynn into discussions where appropriate as if it is a passionate push for Flynn's acceptance.  I know him best, few know him at all.  It isn't a blind love by any means that I introduce him into various discussions.  Does Phil get criticized for bringing Tillinghast into discussions?  I don't have as broad an understanding of architecture as some do on this site.  Certainly not to the extent I have in depth as I do with Flynn.  If I think Flynn relates to a subject, I bring him up as a scarce resource.  Would you rather I didn't?

Wayne

I don't see anything wrong with starting three separate threads related to the same architect if each focuses on a different aspect of his work.  That way each topic gets individual attention, but the approach would probably work better if the threads were spaced out a bit more.

Just joking around with you about Flynn.  Obviously you are very passionate about his work.  If you feel he's under-appreciated, it may simply be attributed to many of us having less familiarity with his courses.  I've primarily seen his work in photos and television (Shinnecock is amazing).  From what I've read, it seems that the greatness of his architecture is best realized from playing the courses.  More subtle isn't bad, but it is harder to talk about.  

[wsmorrison]

I'm sorry, John.  I didn't mean to implicate you in my gripe.  I knew you were kidding by the emoticon.  I was responding to others that often cite my passion for Flynn as a bit blinding.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley Anderson,

Interestingly enough, as we were exiting the 13th green, one of our group, a Floridian, commented on the red clay soil that was between # 13 green and # 14 tee.

As you ride from the Florida Turnpike, West on SR 60, you can almost see the curvature of the earth, it's so flat.

But, as you approach Lake Wales, you can see the terrain begin to rise.

I don't know the soil composition at Mountain Lake, but, I'd imagine there would have to be a good amount of clay to hold the water in those elevated ponds and lakes.

[John Mayhugh]

Bradley Anderson,

Interestingly enough, as we were exiting the 13th green, one of our group, a Floridian, commented on the red clay soil that was between # 13 green and # 14 tee.

As you ride from the Florida Turnpike, West on SR 60, you can almost see the curvature of the earth, it's so flat.

But, as you approach Lake Wales, you can see the terrain begin to rise.

I don't know the soil composition at Mountain Lake, but, I'd imagine there would have to be a good amount of clay to hold the water in those elevated ponds and lakes.

I noticed that red clay too.  Wasn't expecting it in Florida.

[Bradley Anderson]

Sorry Patrick. I shouldn't be so quick to make assumptions.

The course doesn't look too flat in the above photo. It looks like it has just the right amount of movement for drainage, and it looks ideally suited to building shadowy bunkers at or just below grade, with greens that keep close to grade also. My favorite kind of golf course.

So I will switch my vote to Walter Travis if that's ok?

O.T. sorry if this is offensive to anyone, but is the whole red clay thing in some way associated with the term red neck?

[John Mayhugh]

Sorry Patrick. I shouldn't be so quick to make assumptions.

The course doesn't look too flat in the above photo. It looks like it has just the right amount of movement for drainage, and it looks ideally suited to building shadowy bunkers at or just below grade, with greens that keep close to grade also. My favorite kind of golf course.

So I will switch my vote to Walter Travis if that's ok?

O.T. sorry if this is offensive to anyone, but is the whole red clay thing in some way associated with the term red neck?

I grew up in KY.  I've always heard that redneck originally described a person who was burned or heavily tanned from farm or other outdoor work.  Just a way of distinguishing poor working class people from our more genteel southern brethren.

[Kyle Harris]

That "red clay" is strictly on the maintenance road leading from the shop between 7 and 16, behind the 15th green, in front of the 14th, along the right side of 13 and down the 12th hole. It's also not red clay, but a different type of sand.

Having dug many irrigation holes during the course of my time there, the soil is primarily sand based.

Mountain Lake isn't flat at all. From the highest point on the course (the first green) to the lowest point (the basin below the 12th tee) there is 60 foot elevation change and the adjoining Bok Tower is located on the highest point in Peninsular Florida.

Nearby Lekarica has even more elevation chages. The ponds are controlled with pumps that pump water into the ponds for irrigation from the surrounding orange groves, which are owned by the corporation as well. In fact, there were many issues with sand in the water destroying the rotors of the pump for a time.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

About the etymology of the term "redneck" John Mayhugh is exactly right.

[Phil Benedict]

Bradley:

About the etymology of the term "redneck: John Mayhugh is exactly right.

Etymology is the current front-runner for GCA word of the day.  

[TEPaul]

Kyle:

It doesn't matter if Mountain Lake and its part of Florida is not flat as Patrick has now been there and he thinks it's flat so I doubt there's much of anything those who know the area well and who tell him it's not flat can do to convince him otherwise.

[TEPaul]

I got an email yesterday (that many of you have probably seen) offering all kinds of interesting etymologies of terms I never knew. I'll try to find it and put some on here.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

It doesn't matter if Mountain Lake and its part of Florida is not flat as Patrick has now been there and he thinks it's flat so I doubt there's much of anything those who know the area well and who tell him it's not flat can do to convince him otherwise.

I'm anticipating this response and have begun to count up the amount of time I've spent there.

I never worked less than 40 hours in one week from November 2006 until the end of May 2007, except for the week I spent in Pennsylvania.

That week in PA was also the only time I spent longer than two days away from Mountain Lake during that time frame.

Oh yeah, my first day off was Christmas Day 2006.

If anyone wants to say that's red clay, I'll just tell them I got the spray rig filled with 150 gallons of rinsate stuck in the "red clay" just off the right side of the picture of 13 John Mayhugh posted. It hadn't rained for about two weeks at that time.

 

Of course, this all goes to naught if they flattened the place during that week I spent in PA.

[TEPaul]

I got an email yesterday (that many of you have probably seen) offering all kinds of interesting etymologies I never knew of various terms.  


"In the 1400's a law was set forth in England that a man was allowed to beat his wife with a stick no thicker than his thumb. Hence we have "the rule of thumb"

[Peter Pallotta]

If we assume that Raynor was the ideal architect for south Florida, any thoughts about whether or not Raynor himself (or the men who hired him) were thinking in those terms? In other words, was Raynor's "Florida style" intentional and based on a sound understanding of the land's demands/requirements, or was it a happy accident? And either way, does anyone think this does (or should) make a difference in this discussion?

Peter  

[TEPaul]

You know what, Peter, with all this discussion lately about naturalism vs Raynor's engineered and artifical looking  architecture and all these people on here wildly divided in their thinking of Raynor architecture all the way from highly engineered looking to actually natural looking that Raynor might just have the last laugh here.

It just may be, depending on how clever he really was, that he was intentionally doing something that might be accurately termed "Rorschach Architecture".

In other words, it was a form of architecture where different people would see vastly different things while looking at the very same thing. Or even when one person saw one thing, for instance real naturalism, and then blinked and looked again and the same thing could appear highly engineered and artifical. And then, blink again, and......  

Perhaps Raynor appreciated better than any architect that some people are primarily right brained and some people are primarily left brained, while some, who mighty be called "the fortunate few", such as myself, actually use their whole brain all the time! Well, maybe not all the time but most of the time!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

It doesn't matter if Mountain Lake and its part of Florida is not flat as Patrick has now been there and he thinks it's flat so I doubt there's much of anything those who know the area well and who tell him it's not flat can do to convince him otherwise.

I don't know TE, this looks pretty flat to me.
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What do you think ?

AND, I never said that Mountain Lake was FLAT.

Here's my opening post on this thread.

 Was Raynor the ideal architect for flat South/Central Florida ?
« on: Yesterday at 10:16:24pm »      

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With its low lying terrain, high water table and heavy rains does Raynor's style, especially his constructed style, with elevated footpads for tees and greens, provide the ideal functionality required by that environment ?

Wouldn't courses that embraced and hugged the natural terrain perish when exposed to those elements, over time ?

Would you cite where I stated that Mountain Lake was flat ?
Absent your citation, would you admit that:
1     You can't read
2     You can read, but, you can't comprehend

Thanks[/color]

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

The elevation change from tee to green on that hole is about 25 feet and from the tee to the bunkers about 10 feet. The green is also one of the most contoured and extreme from front right to back left with a height difference about almost 8 feet.

The flattest holes on the property are the 4th,5th, and 17th, with the latter two being Par 3s.

[Mike McGuire]

TEP

If you are into etymology you should become a student of Marina. She is a Russian born philologist and does a video on youtube 3 times a week.

check out an episode :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SoDOiaMWQBY

or her website:  www.hotforwords.com