If Torrey Pines is firm and fast in June

[jeffwarne]

and is judged a "perfect test of golf" by the USGA, and all those that insist conditions be such to determine the best player.....
and someone besides Tiger wins...

Is it really a better test of golf?

Seems to me the current course is doing a pretty good job of identifying the best player.

Although I am kind've looking forward to seeing the contrast!
and of course to see if Tiger can win again in June

[Dean Stokes]

Hope they don't grow the rough too long - don't want to here Phil grumbling again this year about how dangerous it is to the players.

I think there is way too much emphasis however placed on the condition of the golf course. Watching the golf channel in advance of the US Open becomes painful. They drone on about the green speed, the width of the fairways, firmness, the height of the rough etc. etc. Just set the course up like a normal event, let nature take it's course and see who wins.
I think the biggest disappointment about this year is that they have already played a tournament on the course. A group of us talked about this last night ( all golfers) and everyone said that this week definitely detracts from the US Open. It makes it less special. The USGA should not take the tournament to a course that already stages an event - in our opinion.

[JohnV]

Dean, I assume you feel the same way about Pebble Beach.

I think it is neat to see how the difference in course setup and mental pressure that the US Open brings in how the players play and react.

Some player will inevitably whine about calling #6 a par 4 when it makes no difference in the final score, just like they did about #2 at Pebble in 2000.

Mike Davis has said the one thing he felt was too much last year as the difficulty of the primary rough so it should be more playable.

[jeffwarne]

Dean,
exactly.
They spent millions "improving" Bethpage, making it play like a private course and making access harder (much like a private course-I've played it 3 times with rich New Yorker private club members who used their leverage for prime tee times)

They could've raked the bunkers and played it without all the nonsense (just like we had been doing for years in the NYS Open) and it truly would've been at a public venue.

Then they turned around and took a private course (Shinnecock) that is daily well conditioned and made it play like a muni. With addition of the bizarre goofy light rough just off the fairways after cutting the taller rough that' s there every day for the members.

Pick a course and play it

[Carter Hindes]

Jeff I agree with you, pick a course and play it.  I guess it just makes a more dramatic us open.  It ONLY going to play like 7800 yards.  

As far as conditioning goes Torrey looks like a different course from last years Buick.  I hope they can keep this going into the open.  

[Philippe Binette]

Torrey Pines is a weak course,

it's just long and that's it, funny how a courses like Lytham and St.Annes and Pebbel Beach (700 yards shorter and wider) are a better test of golf than Torrey Pines.

Tiger said people wouldn't break 100 at Oakmont, it's true because the green complex are so good, not receptive, Torrey Pines everything look back to front helping players stop the ball...

[tlavin]

More demanding conditions, when combined with the pressure of the event itself, always tend to provide a better test to the best.  Does it identify the best player?  Of course not!  It tends to often result in somewhat random winners, but there does seem to be a lot of support for the setup among golf fans.  That's almost inarguable.

[jeffwarne]

Terry,
I'm arguing it.
The fact that the USGA supports this thesis makes me almost sure it's wrong (and the ball isn't appreciably longer than it was 10 years ago either)
Should tennis courts be narrowed and wind machines be brought in for their majors?

Very little golf is played under the conditions demanded of the courses for our majors (although we could all use a lot more firm and brown in our everyday courses)

But all I really ask is, if someone other than Tiger wins, is it a good test to determine the national champion?

[RJ_Daley]

But all I really ask is, if someone other than Tiger wins, is it a good test to determine the national champion?

Jeff, I'm not sure you are being serious with that one.  Is your tongue in cheek, I can't see on the Internet.  

But, my own opinion is that the USGA is bound to set their own unique conditions upon any course they conduct their test.  We know that narrow FWs are a given with very difficult rough to extract more severe penalties than regular or even normal competition play.  We know that firm and fast conditions will be promoted with the exception of mother nature intervening should big rain occur.  Long, gruelling and grinding, with tough firm and fast greens are the tradition of that particular major.  So far, that hasn't inhibited Tiger.

The only think I hope they don't go overboard on, is shaving the greens down into the water, like on Torrey 18, or the 14th running down into the ravine and unrecoverable, as we have talked about on another thread.  I don't think that firm and fast FWs and greens, nor narrow with high rough is over the top.  If someone other than Tiger has a great week, I'm just as happy for that.  

But, shaved into abyss making a green a circus act, is.  Just like Shinny's (7th?) became one.  I hope Torrey 14 doesn't become the one unfair one that Shinny 7 became.

[MargaretC]

...become the one unfair one that Shinny 7 became.

I have to believe that the USGA never wants a repeat of that fiasco.  Even though, as JVB pointed out, the primary rough at Oakmont last year was too difficult, it did not rise to the level of the fiasco of Shinny #7.  Hopefully, that fiasco will continue to give USGA Staff nightmares for many years to come.

[Tim_Cronin]

... then Tiger still wins by a dozen or so. Maybe at 8-under instead of whatever his winning score will be (he's at 19-under as the round 4 telecast begins).

[Tim Leahy]

I have played Torrey in Jan. and July and it is like two different courses. When the Kukuyu rough is up like it will be for the Open, the course is brutal, you just have to hack the ball out of the rough to the fairway. If Tiger misses as many fairways as he did this weekend he will not score like he did this time.

[Jay Flemma]

Tim, do you think maybe that his length and the relative flatness of the greens at Torrey will still render it pretty much defenseless to him?  He has really strong biceps...he can tear up spinach that the pipe cleaner arms of many other guys just can't cut through.

Won't he still be hitting shorter irons as well?  He just laid waste to the place last week.

[Tim Leahy]

Take a look at the scores at the last Senior major they played at Riviera when they let the Kukuyu rough grow in late summer. Brutal.

[Norbert P]

 If Torrey Pines is firm and fast in June. . .

. . . it would still be a boring course to study and play.

[Jim Nugent]

If Torrey is F&F in June...and Tiger hits just 48% of the fairways (like he did last week)...can he still win, given U.S. Open rough and harder greens?

And if the USGA narrows the fairways more, might he hit less than 48%?

Or will he pull a Hoylake, dial back to his 3-woods and 2-irons?  That might make the 7600+ course real long, even for Tiger.