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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« on: January 26, 2008, 11:45:23 PM »
Not just the best amateurs, but 5, 10, 15 and 20 handicaps as well ?

Generous fairways, relatively short by today's standards, par 72, large greens

John Moore II

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2008, 11:57:26 PM »
I have never played Seminole, but I am aware that it is right on the ocean, so if the wind was blowing steady, it might not be a 'best' course for anyone. But I think also that based on the acclaim the course gets from nearly all publications, it probably wouldn't be a bad course for all types either. Anyone on here good freinds with a member? I'll drive from Port St. Lucie to Juno Beach and play, then report back :)

Dunlop_White

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Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2008, 12:36:38 AM »
It's my favorite!

Gerry B

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2008, 03:53:23 AM »
i think it is great for players of all skill levels except perhaps the really long hitter-   because of its relatively short length

Kirk Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2008, 09:55:45 AM »
Patrick,

I cannot offer you another Ross course that would clasify as "best for am's because I have little experience playing Ross courses. I do have experience at Seminole in varying wind conditions. One thing that has been consistent for me at Seminole was green speed and firmness--firm and very fast, perhaps even, too fast for pitch and slope.

I will tell you, however, that a 5, 10 or 20 HDCP better have a  handle on how to putt, chip and, most importantly, play bunker shots at Seminole. Something tells me though, that the reason a person is a 10, 15 or 20 HDCP is because of  poor performance from 100 yards and in.

Seminole will kill these players and I have seen first hand a 15 HDCP have to get his sand wedge re-gripped after 18 at Seminole. Bunker to bunker to bunker....

I will agree that Seminole affords players to be somewhat wayward off the tee, however, Seminole's strategic merits come to light on approach shots, pitch shots, bunker play and putting--all attributes that any instuctor worth his salt would contend Am's lack.



 

TEPaul

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2008, 09:59:39 AM »
Patrick:

The best Ross course for good amateurs?

Hmmm. Where is the Eastern Amateur? Is it Wannamoisett? Those good amateurs who've played there over the years sure say that one's awful good for good amateurs. And I guess it's pretty hard to discount Pinehurst #2 as a great one for good amateurs due to the wonderful and long history of the North and South!

Kirk Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2008, 10:14:57 AM »
Patrick,

BTW...I am hoping that the Country Club of Columbus (GA) is the "best Ross for Am's " as I have a qualifier there this summer.

Have you played it ?

michael_j_fay

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2008, 10:24:27 AM »
Patrick:

Seminole is a great venue for all players.

The routing is fabulous and like most of his Florida courses it is designed to take advantage of the winds.

Seminole cannot be claimed only as a Ross course the areas from 60 yards and in are the work of Dick Wilson. Luckily, for all that play there the Wilson work dovetails exceptionally well into the Ross routing.

I have tracked the scores reported from the differing courses that host US Amateur qualifiers and have found the numbers closer to par than most others.

Kirk:

Only half of the CC of Columbus is Ross.

TEPaul:

You speak of the Northeast Amateur which has been held at Wannamoisett since 1960. Over the years par (69) has held up well.

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 10:42:32 AM »
I have to fully agree with Kirk. For the mid to high handicap golfer without a short game it could be a very long round. Just a great test of every part of your game. It certainly is not an easy course to score round despite it's length. The greens are well bunkered, hard and fast and the wind blows off the Atlantic making it a real challenge.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

TEPaul

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 11:22:11 AM »
Patrick:

I can tell you that some of the traveling professionals of the middle years said that the CC of Cleveland was one of the very best courses they played.

OOoops, sorry, the CC of Cleveland is a Flynn course. I guess Wayno Morrison is getting to me.  ;)

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2008, 03:55:42 PM »
It may be his best, period!

Lester

Nick Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2008, 09:17:31 PM »
I played it a couple of weeks ago with 25-35mph constant winds and it was a bear.  To play well that day your game especially your short game had to have been dead on which is where most amatuers come up short

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2008, 08:22:11 PM »
What I really like about Seminole is how the course is maintained.  They are not afraid to let the fairways (or even the greens) go a little bit brown.  Hard and fast is the name of the game.  It looks like they are trying to get Jupiter Hills hard too and Quail Valley in Vero is good too about it too although neither one is quite to Seminole yet.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2008, 10:51:38 PM »
Patrick:

The best Ross course for good amateurs?

Hmmm. Where is the Eastern Amateur? Is it Wannamoisett? Those good amateurs who've played there over the years sure say that one's awful good for good amateurs.

And I guess it's pretty hard to discount Pinehurst #2 as a great one for good amateurs due to the wonderful and long history of the North and South!

TEPaul,

Not surprisingly, you didn't read or comprehend the intitial post and the gist of this thread, so, I'll repost it for you.


 Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« on: January 26, 2008, 11:45:23 pm »    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[size=4x]
Not just the best amateurs, but 5, 10, 15 and 20 handicaps as well ?
[/size]

Generous fairways, relatively short by today's standards, par 72, large greens

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2008, 10:55:51 PM »

What I really like about Seminole is how the course is maintained.  They are not afraid to let the fairways (or even the greens) go a little bit brown.  

Hard and fast is the name of the game.


Adam,

That was one of the first things I noticed, the abundance of brown/yellow/green turf.

Almost every other golf course I've played in Florida in the past three (3) years, despite the drought, has been lush green.

I've played golf course after golf course where drives with good height have left ball marks in the fairway a very short distance from where they end up.

And, that many greens are the same.

While Seminole has the WIND to dry it out, my guess is that they get F&F.
[/color]

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2008, 10:57:40 PM »
Patrick:

I can tell you that some of the traveling professionals of the middle years said that the CC of Cleveland was one of the very best courses they played.

TEPaul,

The endorsement of middle aged hookers is hardly high praise.
[/color]

OOoops, sorry, the CC of Cleveland is a Flynn course. I guess Wayno Morrison is getting to me.  ;)

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 11:15:05 PM »
Pat--

I totally agree with you on the lush, green nature of Florida golf.  Overseeding has something to do with this IMHO.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2008, 11:26:39 PM »
Adam,

Agreed to a degree.

Certainly overseeding demands the excessive application of water during the transition period in October.

But, it's almost February, there's been a drought, and almost every golf course is still lush green and soft

I maintain that TV is a terrible influence on golfers and green committees.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2008, 03:12:57 PM »
Yes in my experience

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2008, 09:24:57 AM »
On the practice tee, before teeing off, I ran into some fellows I knew, who were about to play the course for the first time.

I received an email from one of them today stating that before they teed off, they thought that the course wouldn't live up to its hype.  He went on to say that fortunately for all of them, it EXCEEDED the hype, and that they all loved it.

The winds were nice and snappy out of the Northeast which is a little unusual.

The genius of the golf course is:

That no matter what direction the wind blows from, while each hole may change, the overall balance of the challenge remains the same.

I'm trying to decide what wind directions would make the course play the easiest and the hardest.

Kirk Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2008, 10:14:51 AM »
I'm trying to decide what wind directions would make the course play the easiest and the hardest. "

--I was just discussing this same topic the other day. An interesting dilemma for sure. I've played it out of the west and east/ NE. The most compelling hole change is 7. Out the west and from the back tee it is Driver or 3W and a wedge or 9iron.

Into the easterly, I barely cleared the centerline bunkers, and then had 4 iron. As an aside, I never noticed those bunkers the first time I played it, which happened to be downwind.

Bottom line at Seminole: One would probably prefer playing into the wind on approach shots all day long unless the pin is in the back center portion of the green which, then, might be more accessible when downwind.




Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2008, 12:13:09 PM »
I'm one of the guys that Patrick ran into and I can't tell if I was so nervous because I was playing Seminole for the first time, or because I got to chat with Pat Mucci on the driving range.  Just kidding Sir, it was great to see you again.  

Well, to speak to Patrick's original question, I'm a 5 hdcp and I brought a great friend of mine who is a 13 (directly in between the 10 and 15 Patrick asks about).  Yes, I will say that there is ample room to operate with appropriate fairway widths.  However, after that, I was really impressed with how difficult the course plays at 6800 yards from the tips.  We played in a consistent 25 to 30 mph wind that came in from the ocean, making the 4th play directly into the wind and the 5th and 6th play straight downwind.  I can't properly answer the original question as I have not played many Ross courses, but I know that last Friday, I'm willing to bet it was not the best course for amateurs across the handicap levels presented.  I'm aware the wind always blows at Seminole, but on lesser days, I can see where Patrick gets the question from.  The hard earned 88 for this 5 handicap after something close to 40 putts is having trouble with the title of the post.  I did comment to my group that it was so refreshing to see a club of that stature be ok with some "brown" in the fairways, as they were firm and fast and playing the way it was intended.  I wish 99% of the other courses I have seen would follow suit.

I also know why he keeps that 2 iron in his bag that I gave up long ago.  I desperately needed it for my second on 16, as my hybrid into the breeze from 180 yards caught the front of the green, leaving me 60 or so feet to the back left hole location.

I'm not qualified to speak on the architectural merits of Seminole, I'll just say its one of my top 3 experiences in golf, just a special place.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2008, 08:56:55 PM »
Michael Ryan,

The wind was certainly a factor.

Before we teed off, one of Seminole's better players told me that he considered par to be 78 that day.

That trusty two iron helped me on a number of holes.
It's a great wind cheater and when you choke it up and punch it, it's a nice controlled shot that doesn't have to be overpowered.

After a good drive, that's what I did on my approach to # 16 which was right into the teeth of the wind.

It's difficult to come fresh off an airplane after spending months up north, and confront winds like that, on fairly fast and firm greens.

I commented to my host that Seminole was one of the few golf courses where you had to take the wind into consideration when reading and hitting your putts.

On # 15, my host, who's a pretty good player had a little 40 yard flip into the green, but, he let his wedge get up into the jet stream, and he pushed it a hair.  Result, it faded, then slid off the green into the right bunker.  Afterwards I commented that perhaps a 6 or 8 iron punch-run might have been the SAFER shot.  But, when a golfer is rusty, those shots don't come naturally.

I had a fabulous day, but, like you I three putted 5 times.
The good news is that the rest of my game was decent.
And, I hit 4-5 of the best fairway bunker shots that I'd ever hit.  Ginky, punched 3-woods and long irons that ended up favorably.  

That's another thing that F&F conditions allow you to do.

I also applaud those in charge for not being afraid of brown, yellow or off green fairways.

Seminole is a wonderful golf course, but, that wind is a ferocious competitor that can humble the best.

TEPaul

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2008, 10:56:37 AM »
Patrick and Mike Ryan:

I don't know what this means exactly to the question on this thread about Seminole as the best Ross course for amateurs but this experience of mine there might say something important on that point.

I came down there in one of the first few Coleman's and like Pat said I was out of the North and hadn't played in months.

So naturally I wasn't feeling very confident or good about my game and in the first round I shot something around 90. I think it was a 90.

In my tournament career I had one of the tightest scoring bands around, never very high (almost never over 80) but never very low. I guess that all just had to do with the way I hit the ball and the way I basically "course managed"--eg very conservative).

A 90 for me was something I'd never done and I sure do remember how embarrassed I felt.

The next day, for some reason, I was given a caddie who was the best I ever had in my career by a factor of about five, and we went out with me feeling like I wasn't even hitting the ball as well as the day before and we shot a 2 under 70.

That extreme score differential was so amazing it was mentioned at the dinner. For me it was so odd because if I was anything in my career it was consistent in scoring.

I knew that course really well before that Coleman but I had never seen a setup and firm and fast condition like that anywhere before.

That time and circumstance is something I remember best and I guess most fondly about my golf career and I just have to think that Seminole itself had to have a lot to do with that even if I can't really figure out what or why.

It just took everything from me that first day, and the next day, again, probably not even hitting the ball as well it just gave it all back to me and more for some reason.

wsmorrison

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2008, 11:08:13 AM »
Tom,

What accounted for the extra 20 shots the first day?  I imagine for there to be that much of a stroke differential, it had to be that nothing was working that day.  Did you play the first day in more difficult conditions?  

I guess what I'm trying to get at, is there something about the architecture or set-up of Seminole itself (a course I've never seen) versus another course you may have played those two days that had something to do with the scoring differential?  
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 11:09:29 AM by Wayne Morrison »

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