Amazing Greens

[JMorgan]

Wildest: Dooks number 13
Maybe Aidan could post one of his great pics.

Dooks#13 courtesy of Aidan Bradley:

[JMorgan]

It's hard to believe no mention of the greens at Ballyneal so far.  Numbers 6, 8 and 12 have as much internal contour as any I've seen.

Also, numbers 2 and 3 at Sand Hills.

Sand Hills 2 and 3:

[JMorgan]

Homer picks.

2, 8 and 17 at Prairie Dunes

8 at Aldarra...

Prairie Dunes 2 and 8, respectively:

[JMorgan]

One of my favorite greens is at the short par 3 11th at Plainfield.  It has as dramatic a false front as any green I have seen.  Unless the pin is on the back, the false front almost forces you to play past the pin, leaving a very visually intimidating downhill putt.  Now don't get me wrong, it is a fast putt.  But what is so fascinating is that your eye focuses on the false front and creates an illusion that looks as if there is no conceivable way to keep it on the green.  The putt actually doesn't play quite as fast as you think, which often causes the first putt to be left short and leave you with a true knee knocker for par.  So then you hit that one a little firmer because the first one was slower than expected and if you miss it, you will then see the result you feared on the first putt as it races past the hole, catches the false front and rolls off the green toward snowmansland.

Ed

Plainfield #11:

[John Foley]

Three that have been mentioned are fantastic # 3 @ Sand Hills, #13 at Kingsley and #7 At Tobacco Rd

A few that I am suprised have not been mentioned - #5 at Fishers Island and #17 at Merion East.

For a few sleepers, how about:

#10 @ Morgan Hill
#4 @ Arcadia Bluffs
#3 @ Tobacco Rd

[Cory Brown]

Are the greens at Ballyneal and Barnbougle both bentgrass (try that for a tongue twister)  The severity of the slopes make it seem that they would be unputtable if they were stimping anything more than about 9.5 to 10.

[Tom_Doak]

Cory:  The greens at Ballyneal and at Barnbougle are fescue.

Still, I think you could play most of them at any speed you wanted to.  Most of the hole locations are in bowled areas ... if you have to putt down one of the slopes and can't stop it, there is often a sideways route off the opposite side of the bowl.  That's certainly true of the green at Barnbougle and of many at Ballyneal, though perhaps not the pictured #8 -- but it's a BAD miss to hit it to the top tier on #8 if the hole's not up there.

[Chip Gaskins]

A few good ones:

The gold standard:
North Berwick


One Doak's best in my opinion:



My favorite two played:

Augusta #14


Bandon Trails #13

[Cory Brown]

Thanks Tom,
The greens look spectacular.
I love the fescue greens.  I've heard a lot of negative comments about them (not yours in particular), but I think they just require a little different expectation than that of Bent or Poa.  I believe the Superintendents are also making rapid progress in their ability to maintain them at a high level.
I'm making a trip in a couple of weeks to play Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes for the first time, I'm really looking forward to seeing the greens down there.

[Kalen Braley]

Most unique green I've ever putted on was the practice green just to the left of number 1 tee at Pacific Dunes.  I was having difficulty two putting to most of the pins and 3 putting was frequent.

Tom, would you ever consider putting a green that undulating on a course?  Granted I've never played Barnbougle or Ballyneal, but the practice green at PD looks more severe than those.

Kalen

[igrowgrass]

The 9th at Oakmont and its tie with the PG.
#12 at Plainfield Country Club

[Ray Richard]

Forget about the broiler job performed by the USGA at the last Open held at Shinnecock. If you can play it with green, not toasted turf, I like Raynor's #7. It's visually shocking from the tee-it looks like a sodded pyramid. When/if you reach the green, the sharp but flat putting surface is tough to judge.

[Bradley Anderson]

In Chicago the best set greens in my opinion are at Glen Flora. They were probably built by the resident golf professional with perhaps some help from a professional architect.

They have the most unique and interesting contours, without being impossible or too difficult. There is a redan style green on 16, a par four where the approach shot can be hit to the short cut fringe left of the green, and the ball rolls down to the hole. On 13 the green drains to the back of the green. That is something you rarely ever see. The 4th and 7th have the coolest saw tooth waves in them.

And the bunkering is extraordinary throughout. The grooming and the F&F conditioning are also some of the best anywhere.

Whenever there is tournament at Glen Flora the greens usually win the day.

[wsmorrison]

Ray,

Macdonald was the designer of the 1916 version of Shinnecock Hills, not Raynor.  Flynn redesigned the entire golf course over a period of 2 years (the mandate was that 18 holes be kept open at all times).  The only remaining feature from the Macdonald version is the tee on 7.  The Flynn tee, easily seen today a few paces to the left of the Macdonald tee, was uncovered during the tree removal process.  Tom Paul, Craig Disher and I were aware of it beforehand in researching the Flynn book.  Craig's research shows that the tee was obsoleted early on.  With the green speeds played back in the 1930s, the Flynn tee was not critical to the playability of the hole.  With today's grasses and green speeds, it makes a tremendous amount of difference even though it is only 6 ir 7 paces to the left.  That slight angle difference enables different shaped shots to work on the extremely demanding green.

[Tom_Doak]

Bradley:  I've never seen Glen Flora.  Have you seen Barrington Hills?  That's another very good set of greens that nobody talks about.

[JMorgan]

Three that have been mentioned are fantastic # 3 @ Sand Hills, #13 at Kingsley and #7 At Tobacco Rd

A few that I am suprised have not been mentioned - #5 at Fishers Island and #17 at Merion East.

For a few sleepers, how about:

#10 @ Morgan Hill
#4 @ Arcadia Bluffs
#3 @ Tobacco Rd

Fishers Biarritz:


Arcadia Bluffs #4:


Kelly Blake Moran's #10 at Morgan Hill:


Tobacco Road #3:

[Scott Szabo]

Cory:  The greens at Ballyneal and at Barnbougle are fescue.

Still, I think you could play most of them at any speed you wanted to.  Most of the hole locations are in bowled areas ... if you have to putt down one of the slopes and can't stop it, there is often a sideways route off the opposite side of the bowl.  That's certainly true of the green at Barnbougle and of many at Ballyneal, though perhaps not the pictured #8 -- but it's a BAD miss to hit it to the top tier on #8 if the hole's not up there.

I'd agree with Tom's statement about #8, as I've personally witnessed this.  The pin was in the right center of the green next and a golfer (who won't be named  ) was on the back tier.  His putt wasn't struck quite hard enough to get over the mound and down to the pin, took the slope to the left (right of the green) and went off the green and down the slope, leaving a second putt from off the green.  The green wasn't overly quick, but the amazing contours basically left the golfer an almost impossible putt if he tried to get close to the hole.  

Adam and JMorgan, thanks for posting pics of the holes I've described.  I wish I knew how to do that......

Scott

[Scott Szabo]

Scott, #7 too. Also, 17 is one of the most overlooked.


Here's a side by side of #8 at Ballyneal and #13 at Barnboogle.




What ya'll think?

Adam,

Believe it or nor, #17 may be my favorite hole at Ballyneal.  That probably comes as a surprise with all the great ones that have been mentioned by others on this board, and it totally contradicts my right to left shot.  There's just something about the way the hole feeds from left to right all the way from the tee to the green and the thrill of running a shot in from the left and watching it feed down and to the right toward the pin.

It kind of reminds me of #10 at Sand Hills in the way the green site is situated, with the feed in from the left and the bunkering at the short right of the green.  There is much more contouring on Ballyneal's #17 than Sand Hills #10 however.

[Sean_A]

This looks to be a superb green location/green.  Does anybody have a pic of this hole as seen from the fairway?  


Ciao

[Scott Szabo]

This looks to be a superb green location/green.  Does anybody have a pic of this hole as seen from the fairway?  


Ciao

Sean,

I am not smart enough to post pics here   but I'm sure there are pictures in both Ran's review of the course and on Ballyneal's website (www.ballyneal.com).  

Scott

[Philippe Binette]

Personal favorites:

Scotland:
1st green Eden course at St. Andrews
1st green at Machrihanish
2nd green at the Old Course
4th green at Elie

Canada:
12th green Vercheres (Madeleine course)

USA:
15th at Garden City, not wild but amazing
7th Crystal Downs

[John Kirk]

It's Friday night.  Give us a list of your favorite greens.

*Personal favorite.  Whatever the reason: quirk, shape, entry, defense of hole -- you decide.  But you must tell us why.
*Most available pin positions
*Best pin position for the money
*Best Stimp-independent surface
*Just plain sitting pretty

And tell us why the green(s) in each category grabs your fancy.

As a bonus, tell us who in your opinion builds/built the best greens?

My favorite greens are those which yield a lot of long putts of medium difficulty, large greens with moderate undulation.  Greens like:

Ballyneal #2, #15
Kingsley #4
Another vote for Merion #3
Sand Hills #18
Friar's Head #15

Greens like this have the most pin positions, since few portions of the green are too severe for the hole.

Best pin position for the money?  I'll pick a big money position, and say front right on Augusta National #13, where the perfectly executed fade to the left side of the green rolls down into position for an eagle.

Best stimp independent surfaces - no response

Just plain sitting pretty -  It's winter time, so Stone Eagle is on my mind.

Stone Eagle #9 and #18 are two of the beautiful greensites there.

[Daryl David]

Here is a view of Ballyneal #15 and a shot of my favorite at Ballyneal, the 12th.  Amazing!

15th


12th

[Josh Smith]

Have not been overseas, but this photo taken by friend George Waters makes this green my favorite.  Love greens that are really bizarre, kingsley 13, ballyneal 12, bandon trails 5 etc.

[Adam Clayman]

Sean,
Here's one that captures much.