[Mark_F]

On the other hand, this discussion has logically turned to some of the well known California classics (Olympic, Pasatiempo, add Riviera and Stanford) that start with an easy par 5 before a really tough par 4.  Although one might say this gives the player one hole to shake the rust off, it can also be perceived the other way.  You've got to be ready right away, here's your best chance at birdie all day.

John,

This is surely the best type of brutal start - one where the player themself makes it difficult by perhaps attempting more than they should, or by not paying attention.

[Kyle Henderson]

This is surely the best type of brutal start - one where the player themself makes it difficult by perhaps attempting more than they should, or by not paying attention.

In this same vein, the opening holes at Pebble Beach are relatively benign compared to what comes later in the round, especially in windy conditions or with a U.S. Open-type set up. This, of course, makes the starting holes of the course a brutal challenge mentally, not architecturally.

[Mike Benham]

But thats probably the best way I've heard it put, the course is now shorter and presumably easier to make a 4 on that hole and post a better finishing number based on strokes, not some benchmark of par.

If by definition, a hole shortened by 20 yards is now easier, then yes, it is, slightly easier to make a 4 but it is also easier to make a 5.  And statistically, it is easier to make a 5 then make a 4 ....

[Gary Daughters]

The one good thing about a tough hole to start a round is that if you make par, you're feeling pretty good about yourself.  I generally expect to start bogey anyway.

[Tom Huckaby]

But thats probably the best way I've heard it put, the course is now shorter and presumably easier to make a 4 on that hole and post a better finishing number based on strokes, not some benchmark of par.

If by definition, a hole shortened by 20 yards is now easier, then yes, it is, slightly easier to make a 4 but it is also easier to make a 5.  And statistically, it is easier to make a 5 then make a 4 ....

Correct.  So by any way of looking at it in terms of number of strokes taken, it's an easier golf hole.  The only way it can possibly seen as more difficult is to add in an arbitrary relative standard other than number of strokes taken.

And why would one ever want to do that?  What wins at the end of the day?  

I assume you don't play much stableford.

 

[JESII]

Are there opening holes that don't really let you ease into the round...regardless of par?

How about a forced carry off the first tee? Or maybe an especially nasty green complex that doesn't let you walk up to it slowly?

Winged Foot's first is an awfully tough par, but if I wanted to hit a 4 iron then a 7 iron and pitch on from 70 or 80 yards, I think I could without too much sweat...

[Tom Huckaby]

JES - there are quite a few, many mentioned on this thread.  Regardless of what one calls the par on #1 Pasatiempo, it's a nasty opening tee shot with OB left, thick trees right, and the whole world staring at you as you try to stay between all of that.  Then if you survive you're going to have a downhill lie from somewhere between 150-200, hitting into a heavily bunkered smallish green with more death trees right and OB left.  Then the green is also exemplary of most at Pasa, that is, the home of the three and four putt. It's a nasty golf hole.

So of course the best way to approach it is to treat it like making a 5 is just fine, and play cautiously.  Maybe that's not a bad idea at Winged Foot West as well?  I only played that hole in late fall though - ie no leaves on trees, light rough - so while I get that the green is a bitch, I don't see the other nastiness.  But I get how it must be in summer.

But anyway re Pasa, shhhhhhh!  I don't want to give away more secrets to potential TKP competitors, most of whom I am hoping are slaves to that silly concept I've diverted this thread talking about.

 

[JESII]

But surely, as they see you play the hole cautiosly, and successfully, the jig will be up...

[Tom Huckaby]

But surely, as they see you play the hole cautiosly, and successfully, the jig will be up...

That would assume I do as I say.

The spirit is very willing but the flesh is very very weak.

 

[John Nixon]

Are there opening holes that don't really let you ease into the round...regardless of par?

How about a forced carry off the first tee?

Dang, I hate being ignored:  

On the east side of Indianapolis is Winding Ridge, which to my knowledge has never been mentioned here. Not a spectacular course, but it has some nice holes.

First hole is a par 4 on which the opening shot, from the white tees, is about a 190-yard carry over water. Second shot is another carry over water to the green. On a course with no range. Two consecutive water carries makes a tough opener when you don't get to warm up.

 

[JESII]

Apologies John, I saw your post before as well, just no memory...

[John Kirk]

John N.,

The Winding Ridge first hole does not seem like a satisfactory way to begin a round.  A blue tee carry of 215-220 yards to start my round.  The result of a push or slice looks like hitting three from the tee.

[John Nixon]

Not a problem JES, just humoring you a little.

What really bugs me about it is that the two nines on the course could easily be switched - both start and end near the clubhouse. #10 is a par 5 with a pretty generous landing area off the tee, and #9 would make as good a finishing hole as the current #18.

I don't know that I have a problem with #1 per se, but just not as an opener.

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