[John Shimp]

  I was wondering what others think about playing a golf course that comes out of the blocks really tough?  Is that good design?  I believe a tough finish especially on tough courses is something that is considered appropriate/desirable but what about to start?  

I bring this up because I was recalling a round I played this summer at Baltimore CC's East course (Five Farms).  I really enjoyed the course throughout, but still can't believe how tough the first 2 par 4's are.  Any other courses like Five Farms and do you approve of the tough start?

[PThomas]

i swear John when I saw the title of your thread,  without reading you post, the first course that popped into my thick skull was Five Farms!

and the tough start there did nothing to subtract from my opinion of how good the course is

[TEPaul]

I don't like really tough holes to start and many of the old architects didn't seem to either basically recommending the opening hole allow golfers to sort of ease into the round. There was probably a very practical reason for that back then because very few of the old courses had practice ranges where players could warm up.

George Crump went the other way and intentionally designed a very tough opening hole. His friends said his model was the 1st at Hoylake and what Crump also wanted was a starting hole that could double as a hole that would cut off play-offs.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom P.,

The idea of designing a tough opening hole as a legitmate 19th, where a playoff could be decided, has always fascinated me. It's definitely an old-fashion idea, from an era when match-play was king.

Re tough openings. How about Crystal Downs? The first hole is really tough, principally because of the slope of the green. And, I don't recall the uphill, par-4 second being a slouch either.

A great course though... Crystal Downs.

[Jason Topp]

The "gentle handshake" approach often translates into the "bland handshake."

Probably for that reason, I like tough opening holes.  The first at Wakonda (Langford) is probably the toughest I have encountered.

I also like opening holes that are birdie holes.  Stoneridge in Stillwater Minnesota has a downhill 320 yard hole that is either driveable or leaves a very short pitch in - it is a par 3 - 1/2 that you know you want to take advantage of because of tougher holes ahead.

[Mike Benham]

How do you feel about a hole that is now completely different then intended by the architect?

In the case of Pasatiempo, a relatively treeless, downhill, into the wind par-5 with a small angular green designed for the short iron approach is now a 450 yard narrow treelined brute with the same small angular green.

[wsmorrison]

The hardest opening hole I know of is at Oakmont CC.  While the second isn't too hard, it has a green with some very difficult pin positions.  I love Oakmont, it is one of my favorite courses even though it is what I consider a brutal golf course pretty much from start to finish.    

[Mark Smolens]

How about Evanston GC for a tough start?  Tho I haven't been there since the course was redone, if I could get through the 1st three holes in one over, I always felt that I could have a decent scoring day. . .

[JMEvensky]

For me, Winged Foot West starts brutal and just keeps getting harder.

[Stan Dodd]

Mike,
I thought 1 at Pasa was a great starting hole to ease you inot the round.  It would be interesting to see at the KP the stats of GIR and score  I am sure the scoring avg. will be much closer to 5 than 4.  And a 3 will win a skin.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'll tell you what also, Stan - a 3 will still feel a bit like an eagle, no matter what the scorecard says.

What kinda helps matters is the removal of the tree that used to guard the green, by the left short bunker... but even without that it still remains a very very tough four, relatively simple five.  Funny how people are now disappointed with five whereas before they were pretty darn happy... and if anything the hole is easier and played from shorter tees than it was before!

BTW re brutal starts, I was thinking Sand Hills fits... perhaps #1 isn't "brutal" but it does require precise play, especially at or near the green.  And #2 is brutal.  But that also remains a rather great golf course.

TH

[Mike Benham]

Mike,
I thought 1 at Pasa was a great starting hole to ease you inot the round.  It would be interesting to see at the KP the stats of GIR and score  I am sure the scoring avg. will be much closer to 5 than 4.  And a 3 will win a skin.

Of course this begs us to ask the question that if the Pasatiempo Group is going to continue the renovation theme, will they convert #1 back to a par-5 with the tee box up on the hill?

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

The original tee was quite a bit over to the left, on top of what is now the putting green... to get it back to what it was would require removal of the range, as well as all of the trees on the left side of the fairway.. not to mention all of those on the right, separating #1 from #9.

I guess one can only hope, but I am not holding my breath for this change.

But we have people here who can answer these questions with authority, don't we?

 

[John Moore II]

While not a very talked about course, the hardest start I have ever played is Talamore in Pinehurst. It starts with a 625 Par 5, then a 215 Par 3 and a 420 Par 4. Not easy by any stretch. Wake Forest Golf Club used to be a kick in the face start as well with the 711 par 5.

[J Sadowsky]

Bethpage (Red)
Cape Kidnappers
Yarra Yarra
Winged Foot (West)
Pine Valley
Yale
Crystal Downs
Greenbrier (Old White)
Canterbury (Cleveland, Ohio)


As a mediocre golfer who starts slow, I'm biased - but I intensely dislike difficult opening holes.

[Richard Boult]

Monarch Dunes definitely qualifies as a brutal starter. Most golfers who walk away with a bogie on the opening hole are thrilled. Those afraid of water on the left often leave themselves 190-210 yards out on this par 4 dogleg left, followed by an approach to a green that's challenging enough to hit from 150.  I enjoy that "Welcome to Monarch Dunes" initiation.

I think their even more difficult 9th would make a better finishing hole than 18, but the par 4 10th would prove to be an even more challenging opening hole than the 1st!

Pascuzzo doesn't ease you in to either nine!  Kind of wakes you up right off the bat.

[Mike Benham]

Mike:

The original tee was quite a bit over to the left, on top of what is now the putting green... to get it back to what it was would require removal of the range?

I don't recall it being that far to the left where the range would need to be removed, the range has been there as long as have been going there.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

Same for me.  But if you're talking about making it the gentle par five that Mackenzie intended, that's where the tee was.  There were also basically no trees...

The tee up on top of the cart barn was relatively short-lived.  I can't see the worth of restoring that... best case-scenario you make the hole 510 or so... so yes you could call it a par five from there, but given the downhill it remains reachable, but too darn narrow to really make it worth trying.

If we're gonna have the range and the trees, I think the hole works better without the back tee, giving no one any easy excuse to think of it as a par five.  I like how mind-bending it is now, for those tied to the concept of par anyway.

[jim_lewis]

One of my favorites, Wannamoisett, has the toughest opening 4 holes I have ever seen. Par 69, my ass! Only on the scorecard.

As far as I am concerned, Golf Magazine's World Top 100 will never have my respect until Wannamoisett is included.

Jim Lewis

[Chris Cupit]

I'll second Winged Foot West:

#1  450 dogleg left with a tough to hit fairway.  Then a longish second to one of the most severe greens I've ever seen.  Jack Nicklaus putted off this green in 1974--one of his four putts I think that day on that green (although the second putt from the fairway may not be an "official" putt )

#2  Lenghthened to 450 as well and the dogleg right with the trees down the right force most mortals to play left further lenghthening the hole.  Approach is to another ridiculously sloping back to front green with a tree growing out of the back of it.

#3  240 par 3 now!  The hole where Casper layed up in '59 instead of risking missing this green on either side of this tiny target.

#4  460 dogleg left, OB right and a tightly guarded green.

As hard as the first four holes are I think they are are excelent strategic holes and a perfect example of brutal but great.  Nothing tricked up at WF--just  be ready to play and hit some golf shots.

[Greg Krueger]

How about Augusta National #1, that hole is causing them fits since it was lengthened to something like 465 yds.

[Brad Klein]

Oak Tree - 1st hole, Edmund, Okla. Brutal long par-4, dogleg right with overhanging trees, hanging lie to a green just beyond a pond and steeply bunkered left and long as I recall. It's the hardest opening hole I've ever seen.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike,
I thought 1 at Pasa was a great starting hole to ease you inot the round.  It would be interesting to see at the KP the stats of GIR and score  I am sure the scoring avg. will be much closer to 5 than 4.  And a 3 will win a skin.

Of course this begs us to ask the question that if the Pasatiempo Group is going to continue the renovation theme, will they convert #1 back to a par-5 with the tee box up on the hill?

We short hitters can only hope!    Better yet would be par 5 from the current blocks.

[Bill_McBride]

While not a very talked about course, the hardest start I have ever played is Talamore in Pinehurst. It starts with a 625 Par 5, then a 215 Par 3 and a 420 Par 4. Not easy by any stretch. Wake Forest Golf Club used to be a kick in the face start as well with the 711 par 5.

I thought about Talamore too, that is quite an opener if you haven't hit practice balls at that nearby range.  

Plus you might get run over by a llama!  

[Craig Van Egmond]

I always thought the Princeville Prince course had a tough opening hole.


Brad,

       That would be Edmond, not Edmund.  

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