[TEPaul]

Bart:

Well then you should direct your efforts to playing shinnecock someday and not some course that someone tells you is in some way similar to it.

[TEPaul]

Bart:

My last post to you was posted before the last few so I know now what you're asking.

Listen, I'm pretty familiar with most of the fifty two courses Flynn did and if I can't even think of one of those that's similar to his Shinnecock what does that mean to you?

Nevertheless, if I can think of one somewhere that sort of reminds me of Shinnecock and might remind you of Shinnecock, believe me, I will tell you---just don't hold your breath waiting for the answer.

I will admit there are some courses from some architects in different places and disparate places that sort of remind me of other holes and courses in other places. When that happens I don't look at it as a particularly good thing in architecture.

Once Wayne and I asked Flynn's daughter if she was aware that he had a favorite course that he did. She thought about that for quite a time and finally said not that she was aware of and that she felt like he felt that most of the ones he did were just his babies and that he didn't really think of them as alike in any way he cared to mention.

Don't you think if that's true it should tell us something?

Nevertheless, if you were to ask Wayne or I if we can see similarities in his architecture and in his evolving style we would tell you that you bet we can!

[TEPaul]

Bart:

Wayne and I were talking again today about what it is that makes Shinnecock so hard to score on generally when it just doesn't really look like it should be that way. We believe we have essentially figured that out, but believe me I just don't  think many have. In my opinion, at least, the reason is just so subtle and that probably is what makes the course and its architecture as great as most consider it to be! We've put the reasons we believe this on here before. They are in the back pages somewhere.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

I don't think Shinnecock is remotely similar to Pebble Beach, unless you're considering the comparison in the context of the number of holes each course has.

Both are quite unique.

As to it's ability to resist scoring I believe that the wind is a major factor, as is the absence of dead straight holes.  # 3 and # 12 being the principle ones.   The fact that there are only two par 5's and both can cause trouble, AND the fact that the par 3's are diverse and challenging.  Throw in the difficult rough and unusually undulating fairways and it's a combination that conspires to thwart scoring at every level.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I don't think Shinnecock is remotely similar to Pebble Beach, unless you're considering the comparison in the context of the number of holes each course has."


Patrick:

Both Pebble Beach and Shinnecock are top 10 American courses and both were designed and built at the same time. Since both are considered great golf courses and great architecture can you see any similarities about them that makes them so great?

Or perhaps look at it this way---can you see any similarities in them that's notably different than what was considered great in American architecture about twenty years previous to them?

[Ash Towe]

This is a wonderful resource.

Thanks to everybody.

I hope this will be a permanent fixture on the site.

[Jim Nugent]

Did Flynn & Co. manufacture the #7 greensite?  Or is that how the land naturally lies? 

The hole looks amazing to me. 

[Mark_F]

and unusually undulating fairways

Patrick,

I am quite intrigued by this.  Please explain.  Is it the undulations themselves, or the angles of the holes across them?

Thanks.

[John Kirk]

As others have said, thanks very much for the photo tour.

Shinnecock Hills is to die for.

[TEPaul]

"Did Flynn & Co. manufacture the #7 greensite?  Or is that how the land naturally lies? 
The hole looks amazing to me."

Jim:

The answer to that is still a bit enigmatic but somebody manufactured it. The topography of that green site is not natural topography in that area of the course. We do have some indicators that Flynn manufactured that green or remanufactured it but no conclusive proof of it. It is in the same place as the redan green on Macdonald's Shinnecock.

The reasons we think Flynn probably remanufactured that green is because the itemized cost for that green was in line with what he charged then to "build" a green; the fact that it looks very much like other iterations of Flynn redans (with the upsloping approach that is unlike any redan we've seen off Macdonald/Raynor's palette, including Piping Rock's which is one of the highest I've seen); and lastly because it does not match the elevation description of the Macdonald Shinnecock redan. 

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