Why aren't there more holes with

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Pine Valley would seem to head the list."

Pat:

Since you used Pine Valley as an example do you have any idea why they have two greens on those two holes?

Yes, I do.[/color]

[John Moore II]

Pat-Do tell why they have 2 greens on those two holes, don't just tell us you know and then not tell us how you know.

[TEPaul]

"Pat:
Since you used Pine Valley as an example do you have any idea why they have two greens on those two holes?"

 
 


"Yes, I do."



Excellent, then would you tell us why those holes have two greens?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
We had such a course in our area that was a nine-holer w/dual greens. Well, let me clarify, there were large surfaces w/dual flagsticks on holes # 1, 4, 5, 6 & 7,  but they were sectioned off by huge spines or ridges, effectively transforming them into 'separate' greens. Hole #8 had two smallish individual greens, one about 100 yards short of the other. The remaining greens were rather large and they easily held the two cups.  There were quite a few teeing areas, creating various looks, and one hole had two distinctly different fairways.

My favorite was the finisher, a 210 yard(tips) par three built in the Redan fashion that had a totally exposed and treeless skyline green built in the Redan fashion. It could be 7 iron or a driver, or nearly impossible in a crosswind.

Sadly, the owner passed away and his kids sold the land. The only 'players' enjoying the course now are the Black Angus cattle that are ranged there.


Edit: When playing to the 'dual' greens you had to stay away from landing on the 'other' side or you'd face a sure 3-putt, the spines and/or ridges that divided them were that severe.

I think it would be good to see more of this done, especially on nine hole courses.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Johnny M,

The reasons and details, the maintainance/agronomic pressures on # 8 and the problems associated with the location of the original green on # 9 can best be explained by that idiot savant, TEPaul.

TEPaul,

YOU, should write the architectural history of PV.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pat, I like the idea of dual greens, yet whenever I have played PV I want to play the right green on on 8 and the left green on 9.  if I played there more often I might like the change.  I know on my course at home there are a couple of smallish greens that could use the rest in the summer by having another green to take the traffic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

That's interesting, I prefer the right green on # 9, until they return the left green to its original skyline configuration, and I prefer the left side green on # 8.

That's what makes betting on horses so interesting.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
YOU, should write the architectural history of PV."

Patrick:

Perhaps, but in the meantime since you said you know why the 8th and 9th holes at Pine Valley each has two greens, I'd appreciate it if you'd tell us!!

[Lester George]

I am building one now that is approximately 38,000 s.f. at Ballyhack.  It is functional AND beautiful (IMO) and really works well for both holes.

Lester

[Adam Clayman]

The introduction of a second green to a hole often leads to a letdown. Unless one is clearly meant to be offered to the less skilled and both are always open.

[John Moore II]

Adam--but with both greens being open, how can people play the same hole? I think two greens can work great if there are two options very close to each other that make a great hole. In that case, its very cool to have dual greens because it can change the course from day to day, and reduce the stress on the grass during peak seasons. But to have two greens on the same hole open for play on the same days, that might not work.

[D_Malley]

scotland run, a new course just over the WW bridge in NJ has a hole with two greens. i think it is the second hole.

[D_Malley]

scotland run course/hole routings


http://www.scotlandrun.com/courseTour.htm

[Adam Clayman]

Adam--but with both greens being open, how can people play the same hole? I think two greens can work great if there are two options very close to each other that make a great hole. In that case, its very cool to have dual greens because it can change the course from day to day, and reduce the stress on the grass during peak seasons. But to have two greens on the same hole open for play on the same days, that might not work.

Johnny, I'll cite the closer on the Valley nine at BWR. Two greens, both open for play, but one is clearly not meant to be played by the less skilled player. Without referring to it as the ladies green, the shot over the river is too demanding for even the average golfer. Playing the same hole is not an issue when we are talking resort golf. On the other side of the coin, I'll cite the 14th(?) at World Woods. Some days the left green is open and some days the right. Since the look and shots required are completely different, the golfer who prefers one over the other will always be letdown because that day they are using the other green.

A course that requires two greens to provide variety on how it's played, day to day, may not be an optimal hole.(compaction aside) That speculation is logical since so many compelling golf holes, do it with only one green.

How does the intro of a second target impact the art of GCA?

[Pete Lavallee]

Quite right Adam, on my one play at WWPB I got the lesser left side green and felt a bit cheated: that right sidegreen is clearly superior. This is clearly a pace of play issue with the left green helping to ease the less skilled golfer through the layout.

[Bryan Izatt]

Here's the 12th at Pine Barrens.  The right side green is clearly superior from a shot value point of view and as a green complex.  One time I played the right green even though the flag was on the left green.  And if Patrick thinks dual greens are creative, then let's give due credit on this one to Tom Fazio.

On why there aren't more - the obvious answers, tradition and cost.  And, in most cases, don't architects have enough issues finding 18 good holes on a property, let alone finding creative challenging alternate greens.  From a member perspective they might be good by providing variety for frequent players.  It can get boring playing the same 18 holes every day.

[Lester George]

Who designed Scotland Run?

Lester

[TEPaul]

The family who own the property designed it Lester.

[Lester George]

Tom,

Is it any good?  

Lester

[TEPaul]

Lester:

Yeah it is pretty good although I haven't been there since slightly after it opened. I think I went down to see it and play it and talk to them because back then I ran the membership committee on the GAP and they wanted to join.

I remember the greens were pretty exciting and it seemed like one hole they reamed out and almost dropped the whole thing below natural grade which sure got my attention.

[mike_malone]

 Stephen Kay designed Scotland Run. The neat thing about the course is how it uses an old sand quarry. It stands out in the area as unique.

[Lester George]

Tom,

With the exception of the obvious, I haven't seen many "home grown" courses that were much good.  They must have really done their homework.  Good for them.

Lester

[SL_Solow]

A couple of other examples; World Woods (Pine Barrens) has a par 5 with 2 greens and Kohler (Meadow-Valley) has a par 4 with one green requiring a carry over the Sheboygan River and a second green on the near side.  Barring the need for different grasses (e.g. Japan) or a green site that needs periodic relef due to agronomic issues and amount of play, I think it is almost inevitable that one green will be viewed as the "superior" site and will get the vast majority of play.  Thus even though the additional expende of maintenance may be minimal, it is likely to be viewed as wasteful.

[TEPaul]

Lester:

Mayday Malone is right, Steve Kay designed Scotland Run. I don't know why but the course I'm thinking of over there I've called Scotland Run for some reason about half the time. The one I mentioned might be called Deerfield or something like that. I'll have to look in the book. Matter of fact there're at least three courses over there done around the same time whose names I get mixed up. I guess I'm losing it.

[Mike Mosely]

Fear of lawyers and frivolous litigation?

Why would two greens cause frivolous litigation?

Actually the hole at WW is number 8 and they did away with the second of the two greens because it was a let down compared to the other...