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Brian Phillips

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Re:Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand?
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2008, 03:49:32 AM »
Grant,

Do you use chicken shit that sits on the top of the green rather than mixing into the profile?

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand?
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2008, 04:17:23 AM »
Brian

I have used pelletised chicken manure and blood and bone applied directly onto the surface. It has to be a fairly fine prill to enable mowing to still be carried out. Mowing heights during the early stages do however lend themselves to less refined products unlike established greens cut at 3mm.

The nitrogen content of these products is very low (eg 3-6 %) so it discourages a flush of growth and there is less likelihood of burning the juvenile plant. The downside being that organic forms of nitrogen can increase the chance of disease like brown patch.

We have a pretty cool slow release product here in NZ made from the waste at sewerage treatment plants.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand?
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2008, 06:59:07 AM »
Grant, Brian and Forrest

excellent posts that I have enjoyed.

Grant

The engineers at a former employer delighted in telling me (a numbers man) that sewage flows through the sewerage system.  I suspect they are sewage treatment plants.  I doubt they are treating PVC pipe and vitreous clay pipe at the plants.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand?
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2008, 08:19:33 AM »
Grant, Brian and Forrest

excellent posts that I have enjoyed.

Grant

The engineers at a former employer delighted in telling me (a numbers man) that sewage flows through the sewerage system.  I suspect they are sewage treatment plants.  I doubt they are treating PVC pipe and vitreous clay pipe at the plants.

James B

This is one of the things I like most about his discussion group.....if the thread goes on long enough, invariably some talented and intelligent people come along to help explain what I was trying to say!


...and in addition.....although I think we are better off having USGA specs to refer to, I also think they become a problem when people refer to them as some sort of Bible.

paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand?
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2008, 09:46:13 AM »
Professional experience in the Western US:

Arthur Jack Snyder built greens in this region beginning in the 1950s. I have never seen one of those greens fail. Not one in what is now 50+ years!

He used pure sand with very little deviation. In Hawaii he sometimes used ground seaweed, but only to hold sand together — not for organic reasons. In Concho, Arizona we did use some peat because we had crushed cinders as the only available rootzone.

Alternatively, I have seen numerous "USGA" built greens in the same areas be re-built after less than 10 years. Ventana Canyon in Tucson was one example. All of the greens there were rebuilt (Canyon Course) about 5 years after opening. Why? Due to poorly managed peat added in to the greens sand. Simply put: The organics took over and did not allow proper drainage and oxygenation to the roots.

However, USGA greens can be good...even great. Odd, though, that a majority of USGA premiere events are not played on USGA greens!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 10:36:36 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand?
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2008, 10:15:33 AM »
I have had trouble with chicken manure applied to the top of greens only. I have trouble with it even mixed off site. In essence, if it floats to the top, it creates a layer that traps a lot of moisture, and bent grass roots stay shallow.  Where I have used that, I have always had to have the greens aerified unmercifully.  It may be a Texas thang.


Like Forrest, I have had great sucess with nearly pure sand greens and I look at every site and sand a little differently than just saying "USGA" without further study.  For one thing, the pea gravel layer is getting to be more expensive than the sand in many areas, and trucking can make it worse.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand?
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2008, 10:41:24 AM »
True story: At a very high end development, a "signature" course was constructed to "exact" USGA specs with attention to detail at every layer: gravel, sand, etc.  

However, the gravel was not washed because somehow that requirement got deleted in the final contract. Here were greens being built with gravel covered with dusty silt. It is still there, mucking up the bottom layers. How long will it last? Who knows. But, it goes to show that complexity does not always translate to better and more improved. In this case, pure sand would have been a better, cheaper and easier method. As it stands the green is likely a hodge-podge of materials as a result of the layers and the intrusion of "who-knows" how much fines and silts that have migrated down to the floor.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand?
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2008, 11:04:54 AM »
Forrest,

I still use a pretty low tech way to see if gravel has been washed - I put some in a clear plastic bucket full of water. If I can still see the gravel through the plastic, rather than muddy water, I figure its clean enough.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand?
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2008, 11:59:49 AM »
I can see the forest through the trees.

I can see the gravel through the water.

I kicked the bucket, but the gravel was clean.

I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the gravel-ee.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 12:00:33 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand?
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2008, 12:47:35 PM »
Jeff....why a clear bucket?...why not just dump the gravel in any old container filled with water and notice whether it's murky or clear by looking straight into it?....you could even use a flashlight if it was a cloudy day or night time even.....just a thought.

....and as for you Richardson...you are beyond thoughts....words even.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 02:44:59 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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