Earthmoving at Pacific Dunes

[Tom_Doak]

All the threads about minimalism and Old Macdonald have been interesting, because it's clear that no one really understands what has to be done to build even the most natural of golf courses.  I don't think Old Macdonald is going to take more than twice the earthmoving than Pacific Dunes did, and way less than the typical modern course.

Since God only knows when I will get around to finishing my Pacific Dunes book, I've decided to divulge the Cliffs Notes version of what we had to do to build Pacific Dunes.  I'll wait until tomorrow morning to post the answers to give any of you brave enough, time to show what you know.  You'll get one point for correctly identifying where we had to cut or fill more than a couple of feet to build a feature, and minus two points for guessing incorrectly.  First (and only) prize will be a signed copy of the Pacific Dunes book, or just the manuscript if I don't get it done by the end of this year.  

Let the fun begin!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

The first thought off the top of my head is that the 13th fairway needed to be shelved in.   I'm throwing this out there quickly without looking at a pic so I don't get accused of stealing someone else's idea.  

[Mike_Cirba]

I'll say dirt had to be moved on the right side of #2 fairway down to build up the left side.

I'll say that the 5th green had to be cut down a few feet into the dune on the left.

I'll say the left side of the 6th green had to be brought up a few feet into an existing knob.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'll guess the right side of the 16th green had to be brought up a few feet.  

I'm thinking quite a bit of cutting took place to create 17th green.

I'll quit while I'm ahead or behind.  

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

You were clearly the guy sitting in the front row of every class, raising your hand for every question and reminding the teacher that there was supposed to be a quiz that day  

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

You were clearly the guy sitting in the front row of every class, raising your hand for every question and reminding the teacher that there was supposed to be a quiz that day  

Actually, I was the buzzed guy in the back of the room slunched down in my seat.   Think Spicoli.  

[Jerry Kluger]

Wayne: Who went to class?

[JSPayne]

Maybe if they would have offered personally autographed golf books in class Mike would have been valedictorian!  

EDIT: BTW, great social experiement Tom, to really find out what is perception vs reality. I find the same problems in maintenance...sometimes people just don't realize how much (or little) goes on behind the scenes to create the finished product.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom,
I would guess the green complexes at 1, 5, 6, 8, lower 9, 12, 15 and 16, the second hole in general.

To Mike's point, 17 ties in with the slopes on either side really well, so it looks natural to me. I thought you might have brought up the back side of the green, but that slope looked to be there.

Are we supposed to guess for each hole?

Specifying the above:
1 green - cut
3 green - cut the right side fill the entry and left
5 - cut
6 - cut and fill
8 - benched in with fill, so maybe a slight cut into the hillside
9 low green - fill
15- cut front right to fill left side of green
16 - cut to bench in the green site, some fill to bring it up

[Tom_Doak]

Mr. Cirba:

I score you at minus 7.  You did get one thing right.

This is not going to be as "easy" as it sounds, even for people who have worked in the business.  Ron Whitten went around with us after opening and I think he would have gotten a negative score.

PS  Ran Morrissett is not eligible for this, nor anyone else who has seen the manuscript for my book.

PPS  You can't just say a green has been altered, you have to say if it was a cut or fill if you want any credit.

[TaylorA]

Since I've never been there, the only thing this is going off of is photos of the place...

Cut:
3rd Green
10th Green
13th Green

Fill:
3rd Tee
6th Green
11th Tee
18th Tee

[wsmorrison]

Come on, Mike.  At least today, you come across more as the teacher's pet than a stoner.  Are you telling me if you took a course in golf course architecture that you wouldn't have been the AV aid and volunteering to clap the erasers outside every day after Mr. Doak's class?

Jerry,

I went to all my classes, through high school anyway.  Hey, I didn't know any better.  College was a different story

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I'm going to go with holes 1, 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18 where you had to do the most earth moving in the fairway and otherwise.

Here are the details:

1 - Fairway short of the green and to the left of the dune nob.  
4 - Fill in work next to the edge of the cliff and the dunes left and behind the green.
6 - Fairway area past the bunker on the right was cut as well as the green
9 - Fairway work to create the lower route to the lower hole
10 - Area between tees and greens modified to allow view of the green and fill for the green itself.
11 - Most of Green complex area built into the side of the dune/cliff
14 - Tee box on back side of dune
15 - Green Complex and mounding left of green
17 - The fairway tie in into the green and the green itself
18 - Massive left side bunker and surrounding area.

Kalen

[George Pazin]

Please keep up the guesses, everyone - this has the potential to be very illuminating.

[Paul_Turner]

The fake dunes between 3 and 12. The large mounding to the left of 15th green.  The left side mounds by 14th green.  I don't think 8th green is entirely natura; the bowl effect was exagerated.

[Dan Herrmann]

Cut or Fill greens: 3 (little fill to raise the green), 5 (some cut around the green?), 6 (lot of slope to the left and right of the green), 9 lower green (fill), 10 lower tee (cut), 11 green (a wee bit of cut), 14 (fill around the green?), 15 (some fill around the green), 16 (cut), and 18 green (cut and fill).

And a bit of cut on the secret tee on #1 and fill for the secret tee on #4.

[Michael Moore]

Tom Doak -

I think that zero points can win this thing, so please accept this empty ballot in the spirit of moderation with which Pacific Dunes was constructed.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Pacific Dunes = Old MacKenzie.  (Or would that be New MacKenzie?)

[paul cowley]

Has the name New Macdonald been considered?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Or how about different arrangements of "Charles Blair Macdonald:"
*A Droller Bacchanal Dims
*A Child Romancers Ballad
*A Mad Chronicler's Ballad
*Ah, Acclaimed Rolls Brand (for supporters)
*Acclaimed Rolls Brand, Ha! (for detractors)

and
Bar Mechanical, Add Rolls

Mark

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

You were clearly the guy sitting in the front row of every class, raising your hand for every question and reminding the teacher that there was supposed to be a quiz that day  

Wayne,
I was always the guy sitting behind Cirba....slapping him upside the head or putting gum in his hair when the teacher turned.....

[Chip Gaskins]

wow, look at the speed the senior members of this board come out :-)  
good luck folks...if you didn't get your answers in quick all the seemingly easy ones have already been mentioned.  though it sounds like many could be wrong.

my guesses:

3) green cut
7) green cut on back and fill on front
14) green cut
16) tee fill
17) green cut on back right, fill on far left
18) fairway fill in second shot landing area

[Tim Bert]

Michael Moore stole my initial guess, so now I have to try.  Based on the scoring system, I think 0 is a strong score.  If this were +2 for correct and -1 for incorrect, then it would encourage a little more risk taking than we are seeing.  This is clearly a penal design.

3) Green cut
4) Green cut
9) Fairway approaching left green cut
13) Fairway cut
14) Green fill
18) Green fill

That ought to be good for about minus 9.

[Michael Dugger]

1st fairway cut, green fill
2nd green fill
3rd green cut off top of mound
4th green cut into dune
5th green fill/bench into hill
6th green cut a little
7th green fill a little
8th green cut
9th upper and lower greens fairly well at grade
10th at grade
11th at grade
12th at grade
13th green fill
14th green cut off top of dune
15th green fill
16th green benched
17th benched and filled
18th fairway filled, green cut

[J Sadowsky]

I'm going to do the minimalist approach, to see if everyone is guessing too much

Green cut at 3.

That's it.  I would have gone with Michael Moore's ballot but he thought of it first.