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Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2020, 07:54:19 PM »
A rater playing as a single during the busy season is a hindrance to everyone on the course. The other day I was interrupted by a disturbance caused by some low level USGA officials who showed up looking to get a tee time. Instead of focusing on friendships and frivolity I was brought into their gimme mine world. It’s like having a cousin sleeping in an unused bedroom. Every moment they are in your home is not as precious as when they are not.


 ;D

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2020, 08:00:57 PM »
A rater playing as a single during the busy season is a hindrance to everyone on the course. The other day I was interrupted by a disturbance caused by some low level USGA officials who showed up looking to get a tee time. Instead of focusing on friendships and frivolity I was brought into their gimme mine world. It’s like having a cousin sleeping in an unused bedroom. Every moment they are in your home is not as precious as when they are not.


Thanks John.

My inbox was blowing up with suggested responses but I think this one suffices...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 08:09:31 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2020, 08:45:00 PM »
A rater playing as a single during the busy season is a hindrance to everyone on the course. The other day I was interrupted by a disturbance caused by some low level USGA officials who showed up looking to get a tee time. Instead of focusing on friendships and frivolity I was brought into their gimme mine world. It’s like having a cousin sleeping in an unused bedroom. Every moment they are in your home is not as precious as when they are not.


John,


At your age, is there much of anything that doesn't bother you?  I suspect that you don't have many relatives seeking your hospitality.  Please let me know where you belong so I can call ahead and ensure that I don't disturb your peace.  ::)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2020, 10:03:54 PM »
I really don't see the need for raters....can't think of a reason to have them...and I have told that to friends who are raters...raters opinions have elevated maintenance levels and cost much more than they have had an affect on architecture...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2020, 10:19:16 PM »

If he is not from the area and this is the only shot to see your course, PERHAPS he thought that the window he gave you MIGHT contain a single time when he could be allowed on the course without costing a member or a paying guest an opportunity to play.  And also, maybe this guy is an over-eager Newbie; unlikely that he represents the universe of raters, don't you think?


 


The "window" he gave me was Saturday and Sunday of Memorial Day Weekend.
I politely informed him that was our busiest 4 day stretch of the season and suggested either earlier or later in the season we would be pleased to accomodate him.He (politely) chose to double down and made a name mistake which I found humorous, in addition to finding this old thread title humorous-that's all.


If you think "not costing a member or paying guest an opportunity to play" is the standard I should apply for raters on a 150-200 player per day Holiday Weekend that our members LIVE for(who pay a 7 digit initiation and 40k in dues for the course to remain relatively fluid in highly concentrated, busy times), well, we just will have to disagree. Keep in mind I am turning away Legacy and Junior members who have very limited to no priviledgess on Holiday weekends, and have a limited window for even accompanied member's guests, and their unaccompanied guests are of course a no fly on weekends such as this and 4th of July-similar to any highly affluent resort/second home area in the northeast.


No doubt he is simply an over eager "newbie", and while I initially felt "it unlikely that he represents the universe of raters", your comments make me think otherwise, and the only available "access window" provided to me by raters increasingly seems to curiously and routinely extend to peak months and peak weekends which I zealously protect for our members while providing access on the other 75% percent of the time we are in mint condition and have ample capacity. 
I highly doubt any golfer serious or dedicated enough to be a rater will NEVER again return to eastern Long Island-a bitch to get to on a peak summer weekend, but hardly Nepal.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 09:06:16 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2020, 11:21:48 PM »
Jeff,


I am not suggesting that you set any standard, nor, for that matter, that you let raters on your course at any time.  There are any number of clubs with decision makers sympathetic to Mike Young's and John Kavanagh's views.  These clubs do not need to be bothered by raters.  There are many others who take a completely different approach.


Again, a simple no to the guy should have sufficed.  If he was doubling down, he didn't deserve a second thought or a response.  You're in control.  The Delete button requires a lot of less effort than a long lament about some undeserving, hapless creature. 


Most raters I know understand how private clubs operate, often getting advice from other golfers in the area on which clubs are receptive and when.   You can infer whatever you want from my comments.  My experience of many years is totally different.  If you described the situation accurately, your guy would not last long on the two panels I am most familiar with.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2020, 11:37:51 PM »
Jeff,


I am not suggesting that you set any standard, nor, for that matter, that you let raters on your course at any time.  There are any number of clubs with decision makers sympathetic to Mike Young's and John Kavanagh's views.  These clubs do not need to be bothered by raters.  There are many others who take a completely different approach.


Again, a simple no to the guy should have sufficed.  If he was doubling down, he didn't deserve a second thought or a response.  You're in control.  The Delete button requires a lot of less effort than a long lament about some undeserving, hapless creature. 


Most raters I know understand how private clubs operate, often getting advice from other golfers in the area on which clubs are receptive and when.   You can infer whatever you want from my comments.  My experience of many years is totally different.  If you described the situation accurately, your guy would not last long on the two panels I am most familiar with.


Lou,
This has nothing to do with whether we accept, need or want raters.
I will have over 100 raters play The Bridge this year and at least a thousand other comps, maybe more.


To be fair to the rater in question (and the reason I deleted my opening post),I found the request humorous at first and simply a bit surprising, so I sent a clear polite alternative set of dates.
The fact that he suggested the very thing you did (that I might consider him as a single after my initial response) i found a little more surprising and when he botched my first name it just became comical.
I would not in any way suggest he should be removed, and the original note I posted would demonstrate he was very polite, just a bit naively doubling down and made a simple cut and paste mistake(a bit careless if you ask me, but as you pointed out, a mistake we all could make).
I see far worse every year, and I have reported one in my 19 years of handling raters-who was promptly removed for an incident at another nearby club.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 11:39:53 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David Wuthrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2020, 10:13:03 AM »
Jeff,  You have been nothing but professional in your dealings with me.
I agree, some get it and others don't.  Some panelists look at it as they have a "right" to play these courses, when in fact it is a "privilege" that you are allowing them to see the course. 
Thanks to you and other fellow professionals for allowing us access to your facilities!
If you did 1000 this year, that is above and beyond the call of duty!!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2020, 10:23:32 AM »
Jeff,  You have been nothing but professional in your dealings with me.
I agree, some get it and others don't.  Some panelists look at it as they have a "right" to play these courses, when in fact it is a "privilege" that you are allowing them to see the course. 
Thanks to you and other fellow professionals for allowing us access to your facilities!
If you did 1000 this year, that is above and beyond the call of duty!!


1000 comps(community, charity, PGA, Jrs, High Schools,Bridge Foundation,caddies etc.)-not raters
most clubs would do a similar number -community, industry etc.
But thanks-as I said "some of my best friends are raters" :)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 11:52:12 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David Wuthrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2020, 10:44:46 AM »
1000 of any kind is amazing, since MEMBERS come first!
Hope to see you soon.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2020, 05:58:03 PM »


Apologies for the auto-formatting:


Jeff,

This is what I wrote relative to the offending rater asking for accommodation:


If he is not from the area and this is the only shot to see your course, PERHAPS he thought that the window he gave you MIGHT contain a single time when he could be allowed on the course without costing a member or a paying guest an opportunity to play.  And also, maybe this guy is an over-eager Newbie; unlikely that he represents the universe of raters, don't you think?


I have made no edits or deletions to my replies.  I didn't suggest anything.  I was noting that perhaps he thought that he could be worked in.


The way that I arrange my trips follows the guidelines given to me pretty much to the letter.  Typically, I will identify an area I haven't visited in the last five years and list the courses which I would like to play.  I'll come up with a diverse mix including some publics and privates which need some ballots to be considered as well as some that come highly recommended and are accessible (no ANGC, CPC, PV, NGLA, Seminole, etc.).


Unless there is a note that contact should be made by email, I'll call the listed person once, usually three or four weeks before the trip.  If I get no response, I'll send an email.  There are very few courses I want to play enough that would cause me to try a third time.


I can usually manage to see most of the courses I target and I can't think of an instance where I've been treated poorly.  If the contact person notes that they are very busy during my time window, most often a week, I don't push for special treatment.  Often they are willing to see how the tee sheet develops and ask me to remain flexible until a few days before.

Of course, there are some areas of the country that are more accommodating than others, MN, OH and WI for example.  I haven't been back to NY to play golf for some eight years, primarily because of the concentration and heavy seasonal play issues you raise.

I personally enjoy playing with longstanding members who tend to be proud of their club and enjoy sharing its history.  Invariably, they are very interested in the rating process, and though they often have strong opinions, I've never been uncomfortable in these situations.  Over the many years, I've been invited to play in two member guests at top 50 clubs (I politely declined) and been given personal contact information many times with invitations to come back "anytime".


The reason I bring all this up is because I am fairly sure that my experience is representative of the way members of the panels go about arranging their visits.  I have not been around raters or panelists who think that they have playing "rights".  In some 20 years of involvement on three panels, I can count only once where I thought that my colleague was acting poorly or entitled (that is not to say that I have not encountered a fair number of men and women who were very early in their learning curve, but no one I know was born an opinion expert).


Now, if you want some gossip about golf pros and superintendents, I hear a lot of that.  It is just not in good taste to share in a public forum.  Curiously, golf architects seem to get a pass usually.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 06:04:17 PM by Lou_Duran »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2020, 07:11:22 PM »
I have tended to stay out of the raters threads because I did not know that there is such a role until I started reading this site a few years ago. And I have no aspirations to assuming the role at my somewhat advanced age. Nor do I have any real perspective rater behavior, good or bad. I do use Top100 for travel plans but mostly just ask people here for their advice.


So as a fairly neutral observer, my question for those of you who are raters is what contribution do you make to golfers who are not raters?


Ira





John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2020, 08:11:05 PM »
Lou,


In your own words why did you leave the Golfweek panel? I have only heard rumors.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2020, 08:48:48 PM »
Ira--


Just noticed your question two posts back.  I was a Golf Digest panelist for about 9 years and have been a Golf Mag panelist for about 5.  I am also a big free market guy, believing if you provide something of "value" (with "value" being defined by the customer/user...NOT the provider), people will be interested in it and "buy" it (obviously people subscribe to and/or read magazines).  So I think your question is a good one but needs to be addressed to the people who read and follow the rating lists.  I sense there are a lot of folks who do that, and to the degree that my contributions to these lists as a "voter" are positive, that is my contribution.


The above in no way means that every panelist makes a positive contribution (or that I do)...and given the number of panelists on the top 3 USA mags (guessing 2000-2500), it would be absurd to believe everyone did.  But I do think the lists add "value" by "framing" interesting discussion about what makes a course good/great/tough....and/or FUN!


Paul

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2020, 09:32:40 PM »
Paul, if every panelist were as respectful and professional as yourself there would be no issue. I can assure you this is not the case, with any of the magazines.


Your panel has undertaken a much needed cleanse and most of the dirt in gone. Unfortunately quite a few good eggs were broken in the process.


From my experience the Golf Digest panel was by far the worst in terms of professionalism and how it was managed. Having headed up a highly thought of facility outside the US the panelists were not actually asked to rate such courses but that did not stop panelists from showing up with a standing reservation and demanding fee to be waived without proper, or any, introduction. This was a very regular occurrence that those in a position to prevent it were not interested in getting involved. In fact when asked why I should comp a panelist who isn’t actually rating the course I was given a response that did everything but address the issue.










Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2020, 01:21:40 AM »
Paul, if every panelist were as respectful and professional as yourself there would be no issue. I can assure you this is not the case, with any of the magazines.


Greg:


Nice to see an old voice weigh in on this, and thank you.  The panelists all insist that problems are few and far between, but many of the golf professionals I know would agree with your take.




Jeff W:


I have never really thought about the number of comp rounds per year at a course, but I must confess that your estimate of 1,000 raised my eyebrows a little bit.  How many member rounds a year are played?  I know you are lucky to work at a club that's not busy all the time, so accommodating people is possible, but even so, the number of freeloaders on a % basis is pretty high.  Not all owners would be so accommodating, so kudos to Mr. Rubin for that.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2020, 09:07:26 AM »

I am not a rater (although I did spend a few years on the Dallas Morning News panel, but dropped out because I wasn't really interested and committed enough) but I am a golf course architect always wanting to see (not play) interesting courses when I travel. 


I have found that how you ask is all important, and any hint of entitlement usually shuts the door down fast.  That said, I have only been turned down twice, and both at (coincidentally) newer Fazio courses trying (I think) to make a name for themselves in some way, not old line clubs.  And yes, I would never think to ask them to accommodate me on a weekend or holiday, even if that was my only day available.  Seems to me, that's my problem, not theirs.  If I really wanted to see the course, why not pay a hotel and stay another day?


Also, last minute requests are usually thought of as inconsiderate and turned down.  If you want to see a course, seems like a casual "Oh, I just decided" doesn't seem all that sincere.  Planning in advance is much better.  Although I can say, planning too far out can result in the person you talked to forgetting, having left the job, or maybe even being relieved of his post for actually granting courses access to (as Ian puts it) a "C list architect."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2020, 09:45:39 AM »

 


I have found that how you ask is all important, and any hint of entitlement usually shuts the door down fast.  That said, I have only been turned down twice, and both at (coincidentally) newer Fazio courses trying (I think) to make a name for themselves in some way, not old line clubs.  And yes, I would never think to ask them to accommodate me on a weekend or holiday, even if that was my only day available.  Seems to me, that's my problem, not theirs.  If I really wanted to see the course, why not pay a hotel and stay another day?


Also, last minute requests are usually thought of as inconsiderate and turned down.  If you want to see a course, seems like a casual "Oh, I just decided" doesn't seem all that sincere.  Planning in advance is much better.  Although I can say, planning too far out can result in the person you talked to forgetting, having left the job, or maybe even being relieved of his post for actually granting courses access to (as Ian puts it) a "C list architect."


First paragraph-bingo, although even a weekend request can be cleverly and respectfully worded by presenting that weekend day as a preference in an email, with backup weekdays provided.


To your second point, I don't even mind short term requests, as I often have far more visibility re weather and play patterns(which might even open up a weekend), and of course reserve the right to say no.
It's easier to give a clear answer on 3 days from now than 6 months from now, or as I often get -a year out when I don't even have a playbook(tee sheet) that far out.




Tom Doak-check your PM
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 02:37:12 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2020, 10:43:11 AM »
Never did I request a weekend tee time.   I had a friend who I thought might be able to arrange a game at an iconic American club so my request of him was along the lines of "if the opportunity presents itself for us to play xxxx in the next couple of years, I would welcome it.   I flew there and back just to play this course when a date was scheduled.  I wound up with a incredible double-dip thanks to my gracious friend. 

My typical request was along these lines:  I have been a lifelong student of golf course architecture and have been a member of Golweek's course rating panel for x years.  I would welcome the opportunity to play xxxxxx  on these (non-weekend) dates at any time that would not be a imposition to your staff or membership.  I look forward to you reply and appreciate your consideration.

Jeff Brauer, don't answer this but I'm guessing one of the Fazio courses was in Arkansas. 

As we say in the South, appropriate requests to play are simply a matter of GHT - Good Home Training.

Mike

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2020, 10:50:11 AM »

Michael,


One state off, and both states start with M.....


As we also say in the south, "it's a shame parenting has been given over to the schools."  Well, I say it.  While I am not a "kids today" type old grouch, I do believe that many basic behaviors boomers generally got more lessons at home is now handed off by parents to the schools, and the result is we are gradually becoming a less polite society.  For a whole lot of other reasons, too, but I think every generation slips a bit in passing on old school manners down.  And, at country clubs, old line manners are still very much a thing, by and large.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2020, 11:50:25 AM »
Given the extensive travel most raters participate in I would hope that all private clubs would suspend all rater play until further notice. As a measure of goodwill the magazines could institute the temporary suspension of visits on their own. For the good of the game so to speak.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2020, 11:56:02 AM »
It's interesting. I suppose it must be the case that every golf course in America (that welcomes raters) must be rated/ranked pretty much exactly where the club owners/members -- in their heart of hearts -- knows that it should be. A 5 that truly believes it's a 7 wouldn't long continue to offer itself for appraisal from the very same people who'd done it wrong in the first place. So in a way, I guess we could say that Golf Digest's "Top 100 in America" is the definitive list -- offering the best and most accurate assessment of quality architecture available.     
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 11:57:54 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2020, 02:31:19 PM »

I have found that how you ask is all important, and any hint of entitlement usually shuts the door down fast.  That said, I have only been turned down twice, and both at (coincidentally) newer Fazio courses trying (I think) to make a name for themselves in some way, not old line clubs.  And yes, I would never think to ask them to accommodate me on a weekend or holiday, even if that was my only day available.  Seems to me, that's my problem, not theirs.  If I really wanted to see the course, why not pay a hotel and stay another day?


Also, last minute requests are usually thought of as inconsiderate and turned down.  If you want to see a course, seems like a casual "Oh, I just decided" doesn't seem all that sincere.  Planning in advance is much better.  Although I can say, planning too far out can result in the person you talked to forgetting, having left the job, or maybe even being relieved of his post for actually granting courses access to (as Ian puts it) a "C list architect."




That's funny.  In my recent travels for The Confidential Guide, one of the only places I was turned down (at the front gate) was at a Fazio course.


To be fair, I hadn't made a request in advance, because I had no idea I would be traveling through the place at the right time to stop in.  And the golf pro was very apologetic, but felt he had to take a "rules are rules" approach.  So, said course is not included in The Confidential Guide, what a shame!


As Jeff W alludes, I often show up at clubs unannounced, usually fairly late in the day, asking if it would be okay to have a walk around.  The responses vary a bit, from low-key "sure, do you want to play a few holes" to "Can we take your picture for our Instagram feed?".  Occasionally, I will run into someone who's concerned they'll get in trouble from their superiors if they say yes, and I am understanding of that -- that was always the case when I was 18 or 19 and writing letters asking to come look around.  [Hint:  golf pros and superintendents have to worry about that shit; members can take a guest whenever they want.] 


If I write a letter well in advance these days I will probably receive the whole dog and pony show, and that's not what I want, at all.  But it's very nice when the staff are just excited that I've showed up and happy to let me go on walkabout.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2020, 02:59:42 PM »
It's not easy being Doak.  A few years back we played a few rounds together and his presence generated responses ranging from "they had no idea who he was" to "can you come in and join our greens committee meeting?"  In the latter instance Tom graciously returned to the clubhouse (did I detect a shoulder slump?) while I hit the bricks.

Bogey

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2020, 03:05:19 PM »
I've had success asking to see new courses a month or so before they open. It seems to give credence that I'm actually there to study the course, and not just interested in being the first person to check playing it off of a list.