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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Magazine raters and the oldest profession......
« on: July 31, 2002, 10:47:14 AM »
Does one remember the tragic heroine of Les Miserables? A brief love affair, a child and then the streets.

What happens to a rater when finished playing a course of dubious merit, with execrable excesses of fountains and waterfalls together with mile long hikes between green and tee? One can hardly write that the course is a third class stinker. Does one put on the lipstick and rouge and declare it the the most memorable golfing experience in one's history?

Just wondering.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2002, 10:54:03 AM »
Fortunately the surveys we give (for Golf Digest anyway) are confidential.

But yes, having experienced that last week, all I can say is that when thanking one's host, a decent standard is to use the oft-quoted "best course of its type I've ever played" line.

Mr. Papazian, however, has made this an art form.  Anyone who saw his letter to a certain well-heeled private club in Carmel can attest to that!

Now back to putting on my rouge....

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2002, 11:51:31 AM »
Bob:
I'm not sure where you are going with this.  Your premise that "we can not call it a stinker" is incorrect.  I've played dozens of courses that have all the eye candy and am not afraid to bring down the hammer.  At the end of a round with any course you go in and shake hands with the pro and thank them for their hospitality.  I usually end up asking a few questions of why did the architect do this or that and see if they have an answer.  In other cases I'll call the architect directly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2002, 11:56:36 AM »
But Joel, you don't tell them THIS COURSE SUCKS right to their face, after their hospitality, obviously!

That's where Mr. Huntley is going with this, methinks.  How do you politely and diplomatically answer the inevitable "what did you think" question if the course is indeed awful?

I played The Golf Club at Boulder Ridge last week and well... let's just say I was underwhelmed.  It wasn't horrible, but as Rich Goodale predicted, I found more things I didn't like there than things I did like... the back nine particularly seemed really forced, boring, ridge after ridge between containment mounds...

That being said, upon finishing my post-round tour, I asked some questions about the conditions, was effusive with my thanks, and went on my way.

How else could it be handled?  I am new to this, eager to hear....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2002, 11:59:14 AM »
Joel:

I am not going anywhere in particular, but I must say that I have heard any number of excoriating reviews of courses in this forum and have yet to read a review in one of the widely read golf magazines that comes close to what we write here. My point, can George Peper, or his fellow proprietors, allow a really negative view to be shared?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2002, 12:03:15 PM »
Bob - let's hope not - not with full attribution anyway!

But that's a good question... they do risk loss of advertising dollars, that's for sure...

Interesting.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_McDowell

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2002, 12:31:15 PM »
Check out the masterful Brad Klein comment on Trump National thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2002, 12:33:06 PM »
Bob H:

There are places you can find honest and clear assessment of courses in today's golf media. Unfortunately, these publications are in the small minority because the great majority are more interested in generating "good will" for future consideration for advertising revenue. What you get is not editortial but advertorial content.

When I review golf courses and people ask me what I think I often think of the famous dialogue between Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise in "A Few Good Men." As many can remember Cruise pushes Jack in the climatic scene at the end of the movie for the truth and says he really wants it. Jack's response is a classic -- "You can't handle the truth." Indeed, very few courses really want the "truth" they just want more of the same mush and gush. And, you are right, there are plenty of those in the golf media who logroll right along with them.

Clearly, there is a place for serious reviews and fortunately GCA is one such outlet. You might be surprised but there are a few in golf media who do provide candid and no-holds barred assessments. But, it's more in the minority than anything else. ;)

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Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2002, 12:45:08 PM »
Having a green chairman ask you "what did you think of our course?" after  your round is like having a friend ask you "what did you think of my wife?" after you just had dinner. There is NO UPSIDE in answering either question.

But, the important point that many raters have made is that evaluations for the magazines go in anonymously and are bluntly honest.

Why didn't Wall Street analysts put sell ratings on crappo stocks? Because it was going to cost them money, potentially. So, if you read a puff piece in a magazine, just remember what the incentives of the authors are.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2002, 01:05:56 PM »
Well said, all of it, Jeff.  Thanks.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2002, 01:21:20 PM »
I suspect that Mr. Huckaby, aka "America's Guest", is the master at expressing to the host that while his baby is fat and ugly, she is among the best.  Most head pros who have been around know "damnation by benign praise" when they hear it, so is best not to blow smoke up their rears.

I've never played a course where there were not several positive items I could talk about.  Recently, I played a CC in west Texas that was nominated (for rating).  The course was unremarkable in nearly every way, but the routing was compact and very walkable, pull-carts were allowed, and the membership was extremely friendly.  My debriefing and follow-up with the club dwelled on those positives, and on the couple of holes that had some design merit.  My rating card reflected my full evaluation on each of the relevant criteria.  Had the club requested a more detailed analysis, I would have addressed their questions honestly, but with tact.  Many private clubs, specially those already comfortably established, are satisfied with their courses being enjoyed and appreciated by the members.  The notoriety of being on a "greatest list" is a nice compliment, but perhaps not so important as it is to a course trying to acquire a reputation and a place in the market.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2002, 01:32:54 PM »

Quote
I suspect that Mr. Huckaby, aka "America's Guest", is the master at expressing to the host that while his baby is fat and ugly, she is among the best.  Most head pros who have been around know "damnation by benign praise" when they hear it, so is best not to blow smoke up their rears.

Thanks, Lou - I shall heed this advice from this point forward... especially as I now am forced to go against my aw-shucks always-positive if it's golf it's great nature and actually think critically.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2002, 01:33:05 PM »
Jeff Lewis:

Your point is well taken, however, what's the purpose of the magazine: to please the advertiser or reader?

I know in putting together a state golf magazine that readers want information that has value. If one provides info that is clearly mush you are really doing a major disservice to the reader and eventually they cease to waste time with such a rag.

What's frustrating is that many golf magazines make it a point to highlight how "in touch" they are with their reader when the reality is far from that. The editorial content is clearly not at the same level it used to be for the major golf pubs because they are so driven today to enhance revenue from all their various outputs.

The issue I have with "raters" is how much exposure do they have to a wide range of courses? Too many raters are "homers" who just concentrate on their "neck of the woods." To be a rater of any meaningful substance one needs to get out and experience a wide spectrum of facilities and locales. I also wonder do raters have their individual numbers really examined for consistency? I guess with so many raters at some of the major pubs that can be difficult, but just like the ice skating controversey at this year's Winter Olympics it helps to see specific numbers because you may have scoring which is really beyond any sense of rationality or fairness.

Tom Huckaby:

To answer your question if someone is willing to put me on
the spot for a quick assessment of their course I must then ask them if they are willing to hear a candid comment. Let's not confuse hospitality in playing a course with 19th hole BS the reviewer knows to be untrue. My feeling is simple -- if you want to hear it bad be prepared to hear it. What I generally say from a diplomatic perspective is that I usually don't provide spot assessments -- like a meal I have to let it digest before issuing any long standing views. In my thank you note I may also enclose some comments about specific aspects that cause me concern.

If a reviewer can back up his statements with clear examples then I think it helps everyone in the process. Also, it's likely that solid analysis has been raised by others so this may prove helpful in getting progress achieved for the long haul.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2002, 01:40:10 PM »
Thanks, Matt.

Still, you do say you speak diplomatically.  That's all I'm getting at - one simply can't say YOUR COURSE SUCKS, even with the greatest of constructive criticism.  Isn't such couched at the very least with something like "what would really make this course great is: _________"?

But thanks for the wisdom, anyway.  I am obviously new to this and it all helps.  I will say this:  the one thank-you note I have written to date didn't give any constructive criticism or suggestions, as they didn't ask me for such.  I did enjoy my round as the course wasn't THAT BAD, it was a beautiful day and they were very nice to me... so I told them so and thanked them for having me, something they certainly didn't have to do.  When do you decide to give criticism in the thank-you note or is this just S.O.P. if a course warrants it?  Or is it only as a follow-up to on-site discussion?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

J_Olsen

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2002, 01:42:48 PM »
Matt Ward,

You used to discuss rating in the first person, but now you seem to be dumping on the whole process. For full disclosure, are you a rater and if so, for which publication?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2002, 02:00:46 PM »
Bob,

I would no more tell a head pro or super that his course stunk, then I would tell a friend his wife was ugly or a bitch.  Walking off a really good course (Like I did this morning) it is easy to spend ten minutes with the pro talking about what I liked and what I did not get.  Often, I am frank about both and the pros/supers appreciate it.  Walking off a bad course, it can be torture.  My favorite story was from the Norman Course at PGA West.  I loved Stadium, enjoyed Mountain, liked Nicklaus Private and then we played Norman.  It was an absolute train wreck.  When we left the course, they asked what we thought of it.  Before I could come up with a sad excuse for an answer, Shooter said, "It has the best turf of any course we have played here at La Quinta."  They walked away happy and I almost bit my tongue off to contain my laughter at how creative his answer was.  Fortunately, there are close to 20,000 courses in the US and only about 1,000 are rated.  With those odds (The worst of the courses being rated still being in the top 5% of all courses in the US) it is very rare that you play a course without several positives.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2002, 02:05:09 PM »
Tom H:

You can provide comments in your letter to the greens chairperson as well. Usually, when people offer comments with clear back-up it's hard to say the person making that case is completely in error. The key is in the details you present. There are a number of clubs in the USA who REALLY do want frank and insightful comments.

Yes, diplomacy is preferred by all since golf ultimately is a gentlemen's game. But what irritates me as a reviewer is somehow being misled by so much pre-visit hype that I know can never match up the experience. Sometimes I am amazed when the reverse happens as it did at Sand Hills and Pac Dunes, to name just two.

J Olsen:

In answering your question I did course ratings for Golf Digest for 17 years. I am now assisting Golf Magazine with its Top 100 You can Play. As a member of both the Golf Writer's Association of America and Met Golf Writer's Assoc I also do reviews and ratings for other publications -- most notably, The Jersey Golfer, a publication I have served as editor-in-chief since its inception in 1990.

I personally believe that rating courses requires people with real passion, time and energy. There are quite a few here on GCA who meet that description and a few who exceed it. However, there are plenty of people who rate who don't have the depth to make the kind of comparisons necessary as a thorough reviewer of courses. That's just my opinion from what I have seen over the years. I can also understand the frustration many architects and developers have with raters who fail to do their homework. I believe I've always tried to my utmost in providing a candid and honest assessment of any course I visit and I make it a point to maintain my independence to avoid any serious conflict of interests that would temper my analysis of any course. Hope this helps. ;)
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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2002, 02:10:33 PM »
I played a course that had been in and out of GOLF's world top 100 (name withheld to protect the innocent 8)) and the Club was no doubt hoping to get back in (which is pretty darn tough to do).

Everything was great - wonderful fall day, the head professional was one of the nicest men I've ever met, the food was great, the course was empty and was well presented but...unfortunately, the design was only so-so and there simply weren't enough holes (or any, really) that made you think and that you would seek to play again and again. In fact, some very good topography had gone to waste, in my opinion.

After the round, as my group walked into the clubhouse, the head professional flagged us down, and asked what we thought.

I responded truthfully by saying, "This puts everything into a whole new perspective."

 ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2002, 02:11:23 PM »
Thanks again, Matt.  This is all great wisdom and I truly do appreciate it.

I hear ya re "rating inflation" and huge expectations also... At the two you mention I made a conscious effort NOT to let that effect me and you're right, each exceeded the hype anyway.  That's a tough one though... happens far too often the other way around, wouldn't you say?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2002, 02:30:14 PM »
Huckster, am I reading what I think I am?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2002, 02:33:42 PM »
And just what do you think you are reading, Brad?

 :)

Yep, I received a letter last week welcoming me to the Golf Digest panel. I am pretty darn ecstatic about it.  But yes, all my shit-giving is now on the hypocritcal other foot, to make a horribly mixed metaphor....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2002, 04:52:00 PM »
Huckster, congrats.  You can deal with Ran and others when the GD ratings come out and people are pissed off why XYZ muni isn't rated higher. ;D

I've never really had anyone challenge me or put me in an uncomfortable position on how or why I rated a course.  I know a panelist (Golf Magazine) that had Steve Wynn waiting for him at the 18th at Shadow Creek to ask him how he was going to rate it...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2002, 04:55:52 PM »
I think I know from experience it is easier to give an honest course evaluation than a wife evaluation.

Many years ago at work a collegue(who was not very attractive himself) was always bragging about how attractive his wife was.  me being the only person who had met her always had to answer the inevetiable questions.  I was always polite and said "yes she is attractive" of course nothing could be further from the truth.

One day the guy voluntered that his wife was the former "miss New Jersey" and once again guys were asking me if this was true and i said the first thing that popped into my head "It must have been a war year"

I was never asked to offer an opinion again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2002, 06:38:45 AM »

Quote
One day the guy voluntered that his wife was the former "miss New Jersey" and once again guys were asking me if this was true and i said the first thing that popped into my head "It must have been a war year"

I was never asked to offer an opinion again.

ABSOLUTELY CLASSIC, Corey!  I am crying laughing at that one... oh man....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Magazine raters and the oldest profession.....
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2002, 07:25:42 AM »
A lesson from my mother.."If you have nothing good to say then don't say anything at all". A wise lady my mom.

One can always be thankful for the privilege and opportunity to rate a course, regardless of their opinion of the course. I believe it is courteous to give credit where credit is due by recognizes the positive aspects. Even if it is "this course is in great shape considering it opened yesterday afternoon".  Evaluations are private and shared only with the respective publications.  What value can be added by discussing negatives with the course owners or operators???

I never give the staff false praise with respect to the course but rather honest appreciation for the hospitality extended ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »