Ross Course - links style

[Brian Cenci]

I recently played Holston Hills and while I was grabbing a burger at the turn I was walking around the clubhouse and noticed a "birds eye" photo of Holston Hills from 1940.  It amazed me in that there are almost no trees on the course and the course and surrounding area was very open.  Of the trees I could see they were very very small and didn't come into play.  If you play Holston now, trees come into play on nearly every hole (especially the front nine).  I wouldn't say they interfere at all, they just help to shape the hole more.  Was Holston once a links style course?

This brings about a question about Ross (being a novice in his work compared to others on this site).  Did he ever to a links style course?  The closest that I've played would be Muskego Country Club, in which there are a lot of native grasses lining the holes (rather than trees).  But, of the others that I've played I really can't think of anything that might be considered even close to a links course.  I'm curious, does he have any?

[John Moore II]

I am not certain if he designed any pure links courses, but I would say that many of the original courses looked much like the one you played, with the lack of trees. The trees many times have been planted through the years or just grew in on their own by nature. Many of the courses may have initially played like links courses but through grow in, do not anymore.

[tlavin]

Seminole.

[mark chalfant]

Brian


Although it may not fit  a precise links definition Sakonnet CC
in Rhode Islnd is a charming seaside course that Ross did a lot of work on. Several holes border  Naragansett bay. and some holes are treeless. As a bonus the course  is often windswept.  A vintage  stone wall, a few feet tall, adds character to  some holes on this 5,980 yard gem

[Jeff_Mingay]

Brian,

I don't know what you mean by "links" in this context, but Ross' work in general is an adaptation of links principles and characteristics at (mostly) inland sites.

[Brian Cenci]

Jeff,
    I  guess I mean more of a links setting.  I realize many of the principles are that of a link course....I'm more thinking of the setting of the course.

-Brian

[John Moore II]

Brian-to my knowledge, and to go with what Terry said in a previous post, Seminole is the only club I know of that is in a links type setting. Its right on the ocean in West Palm Beach, Fl. I'm not sure if its a pure links such as Carnoustie or TOC, but it certainly has the setting.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

My understanding is the only course  of his Ross ever deemed to be in a "links" style is Shennecosset, in Groton, Conn. I could be wrong. I have been before. I will be again.

Anthony

[james soper]

Brian-to my knowledge, and to go with what Terry said in a previous post, Seminole is the only club I know of that is in a links type setting. Its right on the ocean in West Palm Beach, Fl. I'm not sure if its a pure links such as Carnoustie or TOC, but it certainly has the setting.

it's actually in juno beach (as the result of annexation).

[John Moore II]

James-Ok, Ok, Juno Beach. So we're splitting hairs over the city. Its in the same general area of the state.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

What about the NLE Ponce de Leon GC in St. Augustine, FL?

Was that a "links" course?

Paging Bradley Klein and/or Michael J. Fay.

[Doug Ralston]

I thought 'links style' was just a course where the teeing area is very close to the previous green, making the layout like a 'links sausage', each link connected close to the last. What is this about trees and crap?

Doug

[John Moore II]

Doug--from what I know, links courses are called that because of where they are built. They are built on land that is a 'link' from the sea to the inland. Which is why courses not built right on the water are not links courses no matter how they are built. Whistling Straits is somewhat links, The Ocean Course is links, and others. The only Ross that I know of directly on the water is Seminole. It borders right to the ocean, but its seperated from the water by large dunes.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

"Links style" has come to define courses with few or no trees.

[john_stiles]

There are also a wide 1927 panoramics of Holston Hills from the 16th hole, and from the 8th green towards the clubhouse.

Until you look at all the information,  you would not realize that trees were actually planted about Holston Hills during the period of course construction.  Then again, none of those planted were the sappy white pines (1950s/1960s) that are gradually being removed by lightning, ice, and I can't remember the names of the other chainsaws.   Very few, I can't say 'none' with 100% certainity,  trees were planted to be in play. The old hardwoods were left and a few others were planted out of play.

Anyway,  for instance, the specimen tree at the 2nd hole is a large tulip popular forcing play around the dogleg in the early days as shown on Ross' field sketch and in the 1940s photograph.  It was a large tree in 1926 and probably was too much for a Scot to recommend taking down.

Since the year 2000,  any player of any ability, and those of superior ability (college/high school players) can easily launch the tee shot over the tree.

Holston is playing very fast and firm as much as weather allows.  The fairways have been playing firm so the contours can take the ball away.  Trees are not in play except for a few holes.  There are not extra wide corridors but plenty wide enough that your are not even thinking of the trees.  

Glad you enjoyed the day, Brian, and you certainly had great weather.  

Holston was built on an old farm in 1926, in the bend of the Holston River, before the main channel dams were built by TVA.  It was certainly an  ' open farm ' course in the sense that there were few trees. The worst offenders were planted in the 1950s as compared to starting in 1930s.  So, the relatively few (30-40) of the worst remaining sappy pines can easily be removed in a short time.  

The worst pines are those behind the 15th green which provide an unwarranted backdrop to a wonderful plateau green.  Then it would also be nice to remove more of those behind the 16th green providing a skyline approach.  Some of those have been whittled away as well.

Homer John Stiles

[John Moore II]

Steve--indeed that has come to be true about links courses. But in the truest sense, a links is on the coast and borders up to the ocean or some body of water. And certainly has no trees.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

"Links" and "links style" define different types of courses. Yes, a true "links" course is built on the sandy soil on the coast with an ocean nearby. The original question was about Ross doing "links style" courses. Many of his inland courses were devoid of trees when built for whatever reason.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Shennecosset may be a true links course, some parts built on sandy soil, near the mouth of an ancient (and existing) river, near the sea. The ground game could be played on every hole of the orginal design.

Anthony

[Mike Hendren]

John Stiles,

I recall seeing a photograph showing a tree or two next to the bunkering that splits the 7th fairway.  Correct?

Mike

[john_stiles]

Michael,

Yes.   Those at the 7th were some of the pines planted in the mid 50s, early 60s, and removed in the early 90s.    Those pines at the 7th, pines now removed, essentially blocked the direct line to the green from the lower right fairway and could also block a shot to just advance down the fiarway.  You had to hit the upper fairway to have a clear shot to reach the green in two, and even to have an easy shot to advance down the fairway.

Today, you can play the easier tee shot to the right, lower fairway.  You then have a longer second playing diagonally across the fairway bunkers.

The pines are not in the 1940s aerial that Brian referenced. The pines were in the large modern color oblique aerial (1960s photo),  which is no longer displayed.

John