Did I get these two holes right?

[Matt_Cohn]

This is the one I'm not really sure about. Does it work? I know you can't tell without the green contours. Imagine a slightly raised right edge that would make approaches from the right fairway a bit more difficult. The look of the place is treeless, kind of rugged with native grass type stuff. Anyway:



The second one I think I like and just posted it for that single reason.

[Philippe Binette]

Contours man, it's 90 % of the game...

looks like there are some good options on the holes

your second hole definitely exists somewhere (look like and inverted 17th at National Golf Links)

your first hole almost have the same angles as TPC at Sawgrass 11th, although Dye covered the left entrance with 2 pot bunkers

[Matt_Cohn]

Hadn't thought about that 11th at Sawgrass. You're right, there's really some similarity.

I have the contours in my head.     Just *so* much more work to express them on paper.

[Bruce Katona]

Matt: If you are ok to accept my $0.02:

 On the par 5, you have set up a very good 3 shot hole and given the shorter hitter a good chance to make par....tempt the longer hitter to go for the green in 2 by playing down the right side of the hole (if you can)...if I could hit the ball that far, I would never go for the green in two as the risk is much greater than the reward (very tight looking around the green).

Same on the par 4...if you either move the tee up, you can tempt the long hitter to drive the green and give the average player a 3 woo/hybrid tee ball with a short iron approach into the green. Maybe add one spoke of green out toward the top of the drawing so that if a big hitter drives the green, he has soem putting surface to hold.

[JSPayne]

I really hope those bunker complexes are unmaintained "naturally rugged" bunkers because that would be a pain in my arse to maintain!

Are architects not aware of the increasing numbers of articles describing how the elevation of expectations for bunker maintenance are making them among the highest cost per square foot maintenance items second only to greens?

[Garland Bayley]

Overbunkered. Did you say your last name was Norman?

[Bill Brightly]

Are those you entries for the Links Magazine contest? First one looks very nice!

[John Moore II]

I would say that the holes standing alone look fine, but what do the rest of the holes look like, to give some context for where they are going? That would be my only question. Yes they look fine, but how well do they fit with the rest. Without that, its hard for me to make an assessment.

[tlavin]

Very sandy eye candy

[Michael Powers]

I like them both.  Maybe get Steve Smyers to work out those bunkers and push them up on a hill side a la Royce Brook, So. Dunes.

[Kyle Henderson]

***Disclaimer: I like your present tee locations. The additional tees I'm suggesting would be small and used on alternate days for those playing from the tips.***

I think alternate tee angles (in addition to the ones you show) would benefit both holes. For the first hole: a tee box to the left would make the fairways bunkers more of a diagonal hazard. The left fairway finger might be extended back to make it a barely-reachable (with favorable winds) but more narrow and dangerous short cut.

On the second hole: A tee box to the left would make the green slightly closer and make a layup to the right a much more agonizing option for the aggressive golfer. The green complex would need to be tweaked a bit to make it drivable from both angles.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, The slightly raised right edge of the first green raised my eyebrows. Now, I freely admit that the bunker on that right side made me think the terrain would naturally fall that way. Thats why a higher right side made little sense to me. When I play a hole whose break is away from the low area of the property or water, I shake my head.

[Matt_Cohn]

Adam,

Yeah, that's an interesting thought. I think more accurately, the green would generally slope toward its front-left entrance, with perhaps one extra little roll on the right; so when approaching it from the right fairway, it would seem as though the right edge were higher. It wouldn't be a #10 at Oakmont sort of thing.

My motivation is that a wedge shot over a bunker isn't a big deal to a good player. What other defenses are available that will motivate a player to use that left fairway?

Related to this, have you been to or seen pictures of Commonwealth in Melbourne? That course has a lot of high-side greenside bunkers that function very well, but it's a bit unusual. Just wondering your opinion of that setup.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, Have not been down yonder yet. But,  L&M's Lawsonia Links comes to mind where the built up green complexes more than over compensated from the natural flow a specific piece of that property. I suppose when the juxtaposition is obvious, the architects art is at work.
 Although, some of the sage words Ben Crenshaw spoke to me about was how Thomas' Riviera had no feature that went against the flow of the property. I suppose it is quite similar to the recent rash of threads on Naturalism V. Juxtapositional templates. I don't know if anyone made a connection between the modern art movement of the early 20th century and the National school, but I suspect its there.