New Golf Course in New York City RFP is out

[Ray Richard]

Long discussed, it appears the new course will happen. Any rumors of the budget?

http://tinyurl.com/2lndbt

[Joel_Stewart]

Good news, I assume.

Hopefully the RFP isn't solely on the cost.  Some young unknown architect may bid $10,000 and win on price alone?  It doesn't say how many acres the propert is, but does say they are looking for a links type golf course.  

Should be interesting over the next few years.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I did a quick read, and fees aren't part of it, they select on qualifications and negotiate a "fair and reasonable fee."

I suspect the big names, if they care to work under NYC guidelines of equal opportunity and what not (RFP is 97 pages, which is always scary) have the inside track.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Isn't this the site of the proposed Nicklaus course? I guess the prior RFP expired as all the environmental problems delayed this project.

[J Sadowsky]

http://www.golfvacationinsider.com/issues/golfvacationinsider/more_golf_vacation_tips/new-york-golf-courses-bronx_338-1.html

This may help explain what has been happening up until now.  Jack Nicklaus had created the original design - not sure if he'll be allowed to rebid, either with his original development group or seperately.  

[Steve Lapper]

This RFP is far more complex than appears on the surface. I'm hoping Bruce Katona chimes in (as he might have a closer read), but I believe their maybe some significant environmental clean-up liability ready to assign to the winner of the request.

As for architect selection, I'd be shocked if this deal could come to fruition with a GCA-favored name (save for Eric Bergstol) as any winning development group would be looking at a very, very expensive build-out coupled with limited fee-driven returns (likely to be mandated by the city).

I'd agree with Jeff that the big national (and regional, maybe??) firm will be favored here. Too bad, as the site is wonderfully situated with plenty of aesthetic appeal.

[Norbert P]

       RFP = Request For Proposal

I'm just curious, this is an example of an RFP Timeline from a town in Washington State.

"TIME SCHEDULE.
The City will follow the following timetable, which should result in a selection of a firm by December 27, 2007.

Issue RFP 12/4/07
Deadline for Submittal of Proposals 12/20/07
Preliminary Selection of Firm12/27/07
Notify Firm Chosen 12/27/07 "

To me, for such a large project, that seems very fast-track.  I mean, from issue of RFP to deadline for submittal is 17 days.  One week later they give their answer. I spend more time than that just deciding what brand of new tires are gonna go on my truck.  Is this standard practice?  

[Joel_Stewart]

I did a little research and this project is a mess, at least when our next President Guilani was involved and Jack Nicklaus.  There is a web site, freinds of Ferry Point that out lines all of the stuff.

Not sure if this is the site, doesn't look like a landfill.

[Tom_Doak]

The golf course site is on the other side of the bridge approach (far left corner of the photo), those athletic fields aren't to be touched.

As mentioned above, RFP's like this pretty much preclude anybody but the big boys (with big dollars) from getting involved.  It's a pretty big investment of time if you don't think you have an inside track to getting the job.

[Joel_Stewart]

Sorry that photo was so big?

Tom:
Are you going to bid for the job?  The bid instructions suggest that after an architect is choosen and work begins, a management company would then be selected.

If they want some big boys to do something, maybe Ken Baskt, Mike Keiser or Julian Robertson should get involved.

[corey miller]

Yep the project is a mess with the contract being signed in 2000 and Mayor Bloomberg being in office for six years.   He certainly cleaned up any problems quickly, maybe he should run for President

[Pete Stankevich]

I contacted someone who is very familiar with the project.  
He said the terms in the previous RFP were such that no one would be interested in doing it.  
Hopefully, they've changed it so that it's more reasonable.

[Matt_Ward]

There was a story in the Metro section of this past Sunday's NY Times.

Given the long tap dancing that's been happening I find it difficult to believe this project will ever be completed given the amount of effort -- construction / clean-up and costs involved.

[Tom_Doak]

Joel:

I would love to build a public golf course in the New York area -- that site is exactly 30 minutes from where I grew up.  However, I don't trust the process as it's set up and I don't relish the thought of signing myself up for years and years of red tape.

If somebody wants to do a bunch of paperwork on our behalf for a small share of the fees should we get the job, you are welcome to e-mail me.  Otherwise, I am not likely to respond to the RFP.

[Bruce Katona]

Pete & Steve: You are correct....the original RFP that went out was very difficult to make work for either side - developer or The City.....I haven't read the new RFP as yet, but I'm sure some of our team have.

The actual site itself is very cool...been to and by it many times.....the project could be very special.

[Steve Lapper]

The real problem here is that while the site is plenty attractive and well-situated, the built-in failure of an independent business model makes it practically impossible to succeed.

The city wants a private entity to come in, finish the contamination clean-up, design and build out the course and accompanying facilities (they'll actually allow major leeway for creativity here), and operate them, all the time capping fees at a reasonable rate with layers of favoritism given to various NYC residents. This equation cannot even begin to succeed with today's expensive construction costs and entitled labor restrictions. As we say around these parts: fuggetiboutit."

The city doesn't want to invest any $$ into such a project and instead wants the private side to take all the economic risk with no promise of an equal return. This is a common philosophy on the East Coast these days and our project in Old Bridge, NJ (less than 10 miles from Staten Island and 30min from Manhattan) faces similar problems. The only loser: public golf for the largest metropolitan golfing demographic in North America.

The sad part is that the site could easily yield, with the help of any great architect, a magnificent addition to public golf. I realize it's only a single (albeit crazy) opinion but if the USGA had the brains and balls to approach city officials and propose a specialized and creative JV deal, their institutional weight might succeed to create a monument to the game that would far exceed anything they might otherwise accomplish out here in Far Hills....just a thought

[Steve Lang]

  and the USGA would use their favorite US Open Dr. GCA.. ?

[Steve Lapper]

Steve:

  In my dream (and thats likely all it would ever amount to), the Bluebloods would actually issue their own architectural RFP, with submissions from the likes of Kelly Moran, Bill & Ben, Tom Doak, Jim Engh, Gil Hanse, and a few others. An independent review committee comprised of competitive amateurs, game writers, historians, pundits, and all led by golf's most beloved would be responsible for picking the architectural team. Of course, the alarm clock then goes off and once again I realize it was all too good to be true!

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

As some know, this has been an annual topic for me.  Here is the history of Ferry Point over the past 5+ years on GCA:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4764;start=msg91238#msg91238

[Lester George]

I just completed a golf course (Rock Manor) in the middle of a 400 million dollar road project (that big enough?).  Worked on several landfills as well.  Built what is possibly the most expensive municiple course in the world (80 million).  Hope that qualifies me to respond?  

I just can't wait to read a 95 page RFP.  The guy who gets this job won't have to bother with the RFP.  Once the city goes through the "motions" of making it look legitimate, they'll announce who they have already chosen.  

Lester

[Lester George]

One of our Landfill courses (Lamberts Point) won the environmental affinity award from Golf Industry News.  I was just looking for some information on it and came across this cool website which has some nice video.  This is not shameless promotion, just thought ya'll would like to see it.

Lester

http://www.lambertspointgolf.com/


 

[Ray Richard]

The Quarry Hills project in Quincy Ma is a John Sanford design built on top of two landfills. They spent more than 110 million for 27 holes, with 20-30 foot fills using excavation from the Central Artery Project. Funky engineering stories abound.

[Tom_Doak]

Ray:

How'd that golf course turn out?

[Ray Richard]

Tom,

A nice layout-a few quirky holes but a sound design. Exciting panarama of Boston and its world class harbor. John has some Dick Wilson influence in his work and he had the patience to tough out the 10 year window. It's very hilly due to the two landfill scenario. It's a high end course that caters to business types that are staying in Boston. The typical duffer can't afford the fee, and they end up at the nearby Presidents Golf Course.

I worked on the job for a year-I remember my first day-we were driving by a pile of dirt containing 1 million yards and one of the engineers said "This pile is in the wrong place, we need to move it over a bit then move it again to the same place-in 14" compacted lifts."

[Brad Tufts]

Not to totally change the thread to "Granite Links," but I actually work in Batterymarch Park, about a half mile from the GLGC entrance.  I've played the original 18 several times, and it is quirky to say the least.  There are some great visuals, views of the city, aesthetic bunkering.  I have to say that I do not think it is particularly playable, and interestingly enough, I think it plays much more "normal" (if there is such a thing at GL) from the back tees.  I played the whites in an outing, and many of the holes required iron tee shots, etc.

I have not played the new 9 ($65?), and perhaps it compliments the original 18, but I have heard it's much like the other holes.  I hit balls there quite a bit, and it is a nice spot to whale away and putt and chip.  But, if you are looking for fun, President's is the place to be.

Alas, the golf course is much better than what it was before...a place for Whitey and his goons to ditch tainted cars in the quarries.  They certainly play up the "closest course built to Boston in 30 years" angle, and use it to charge a hefty fee.

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