Lincoln Park - A gem of some kind ...

[KBanks]

Wasn't Sandy Tatum leading a drive to restore Lincoln Park, as well as Sharp Park, at some point? A la Harding Park?

Has that effort gotten any traction?

Ken

[Matt_Cohn]

Tim, I agree with you about out of towners.

I've always said it takes a special kind of effort to take 100 acres of some of the most beautiful land in the country and lose money on it.

[Mike Benham]

With little money spent on maintenance, I'm not sure it is losing money.

The weekend rate for non-residents is $ 39 (or $ 8 an hour ) which ain't bad ...

[David_Tepper]

KBanks -

The current & future status of Lincoln Park golf course has become a political football of sorts lately.

While Tatum is leading a group to upgrade Lincoln & Sharp Park, there are politicians in SF raising the idea of taking 9 holes from the golf course and converting that piece of the property for other civic uses.

Such is life in the big and struggling city!

DT  

[Kyle Henderson]

Wasn't Sandy Tatum leading a drive to restore Lincoln Park, as well as Sharp Park, at some point? A la Harding Park?

Has that effort gotten any traction?

Ken

I hear through the grapevine that Harding Park is now losing $$$ (primarily because of an abundance of discounted seniors filling up the tee times), which will significantly hamper future muni revamps.

Can anyone verify this?

[John Keenan]

Does Lincoln have a Supt. or is maintenance and such done by City of SF Gardner's?  

Having Sandy T involved may in this case not be good. The situation around Harding and the cost are laid at his feet. I would not agree that he is to blame but the powers to be in SF seem to be trying to paint his as the problem.

[David_Tepper]

Kyle Henderson -

Yes, Harding Park is a financial disappointment to the city and that clearly makes the prospect of improving the other city courses difficult. Part of the problem is that the renovation of Harding proved to be far more expensive than anticipated, due to course drainage issues.

I do not know if excessive play by seniors at lower green fees is exacerbating the situation.

John Keenan -

I am pretty sure that the grounds crews at both Harding & Lincoln are city employees earning wages & benefits far higher than what private golf clubs are paying.  

DT

[John Keenan]

David

Does Lincoln have a Supt. or is maintenance and such done by City of SF Gardner's?  

Having Sandy T involved may in this case not be good. The situation around Harding and the cost are laid at his feet. I would not agree that he is to blame but the powers to be in SF seem to be trying to paint his as the problem.

On the Harding drainage front I would suspect Lincoln would have some issues on that front as well..

 

[David_Tepper]

John K. -

I presume the grounds crew at Lincoln are city/union workers. I do not know who supervises them.

The problem with the drainage at Harding was keeping the water from draining off the course and into Lake Merced. There was concern that this would erode the cliffs/bluffs upon which the course sits above the lake and carry soil down into the lake. The drainage had to be arranged to avoid this. (How it was accomplished, I do not know!)

Except for a few holes,  I do not think this would be a problem at Lincoln, although Lincoln has other drainage issues.

DT

[Patrick Kiser]

Mike,

Nice to see a focus on the course for a change.

I'll be the first to plead guilty to complaining about the city's handling of Lincoln, Sharp and Harding.

That said...  couple of answers to some of the questions.

Drainage took a real beating.  Was just there yesterday and noticed someone must now think the 2nd fairway is a new crop field.  I think they planted turnips or something it's so thrashed.

Fees: $23 with resident card and that's up from $18 in '06.  Out of towners are lining up for over $100 rounds at Harding.  Seniors have complained more about price hikes at Harding over any other city course.

Mower(s): none.  Maybe PG could unload a mower since they seem in dire straights themselves.  Yard sale anyone?

Tree management:  They've actually made some strides in that direction ... just still not very good.

Revenues:  Impossible to be losing money.  Just not making much.  I agree with Mike on that one.  Not making money directly or indirectly off of Harding is also a misconception.  They've got buses lined up all the time and it's like the "build it and they will come" line from Field of Dreams.

As a sidenote, one of the bigger expenses of Harding was ... the ridiculous clubhouse.  They dropped some $5MM and for what?  Ah the wonderful unions had to fight over who got to build what.  But wait ... I'm starting to complain again.

Long live Nutville!





Lincoln Park 18th Panoramic

[AndrewB]

If Lincoln Park was in the same condition as Harding Park, do people think it would be an equal (or perhaps even better) venue for the match play portion of the tournament?

[John Keenan]

I do not think Lincoln would be considered the equal of Harding with repairs. Growing up in SF playing Harding was a bigger deal than Lincoln. As a college student unsure why we felt that way but we did.

Lincoln is shorter and for better or worse that impacts peoples opinion of a course. Lincoln is 5146 from the Blues versus Harding at 6829. In addition Harding's 18th is much more of a signature hole with a carry over the lake. Not clear if Lincoln has such a hole. Harding also I think has much more of old SF golf history. Ventura winning the City Championship, Roseburg, Miller, Fry Brothers and others. Harding was chosen to be redone for a lot of reasons one of which was its place in the history of SF city golf.

On playing a match at Lincoln given the inter city location I could not see an AMEX type event being played there. Still a gem of a course and one that should not be lost.

[Kalen Braley]

Even though its very unlikely, I think holding a pro match play event at Lincoln would be a hoot.  With all the short holes, it would create a ton of risky and fun to watch shots by the big boys.  Granted they would have to at least mow the fairways and get the greens to at least 8 on the stimp.    

[John Keenan]

Kalen

You idea would most definitely "take the driver out of their hands. To use a often stated remark

I would also think that the Fred Funks of the world would do quite well while the JB Holmes's may struggle a bit

Agree would be fun to watch but not for the neighbors given the parking and traffic situation. I guess you could park at the beach and bus people in.

An unlikely happening but does present an interesting and fun idea

[Kalen Braley]

John,

I think the opposite would happen.  With all of those driveable holes as noted previously in this thread...I think it would in fact put the driver into thier hands.

Its always more exciting to watch the pros play when while they can safely lay up with an iron, there is much to be gained by pulling out the big stick.

[John Keenan]

Kalen you may well be right but sadly I think we both know it is highly unlikley that we will ever find out.

Still fun to wonder what if

John

[Tom Huckaby]

I don't think you gents really answered Andrew's question.  He asked if assuming equal playing conditions, would Lincoln be a better venue for the match play part of the SF City.

And to that I give a resounding YES.  It is one hell of a great match play course, for all the reasons already stated.  It would be fascinating to watch the good players tackle it in match play head to head.  And the SF City presents few if any logistical issues.

What they ought to do is reverse things and do stroke play at Harding, match play at Lincoln... But Lincoln is such a bog, I can see not wanting anything of any importance held there.  In fact to that end I have to believe they do the stroke play qualifier there only for space reasons... competitively that is rather a joke given massive rub of the green issues.

TH

[John Keenan]

You may find this shocking or surprising but I think the thread went off in a different direction that of holding an AMEX or pro event at Lincoln. I for one did not reply accurately as you noted.

As to using Lincoln for match play and Harding for stroke would be quite interesting.

Nice call Huck

[AndrewB]

I don't think you gents really answered Andrew's question.  He asked if assuming equal playing conditions, would Lincoln be a better venue for the match play part of the SF City.

Yes, that's right, thanks Tom.  Around these parts, "the tournament" is the SF City and I took it for granted that would be obvious.

I have to admit, one of the things I like about Lincoln Park is the bad condition of the course.  It presents challenges that are rarely seen in tournament golf and I find it fun to try to overcome them.  That said, I would one day like to see how the course plays firm and fast with all the interesting movement in the land.

[Tom Huckaby]

John - I am the king of thread-jacking myself, so no hassles there!  I just figured Andrew's direct question was worth exploring also.

And Andrew, I too kinda enjoy the horrid conditions at Lincoln now that I only play there every couple years - it is a weird masochistic change of pace, and a very unique challenge.  For you playing it in competition must get VERY interesting and if you do relish it, then that's a huge leg up on your competitors as most much bitch like crazy!  As for me, back when I used to play it a lot, the horrid conditions got old quickly....

Note I've NEVER played it firm and fast - I can't see how it would ever get that way.  But I have played it where the ball got at least decent roll... and it is pretty interesting.

TH

[Mike Benham]

If Lincoln were firm and fast, it might take 6 hours to play 18 holes.  Do you think you could keep a ball on the first green?  On the 4th hole, everything will bounce down into the hazard ...

Wait, if it was firm and fast, they would have to have rough to keep the ball in play !!!


But Lincoln would be a great match play venue, where a tortoise (Huckaby) v. hare (Noser) match would be quite entertaining ...

[Tom Huckaby]

Exactly!

Maybe I'm excited about it because I think I'd have a fighting chance against a big bomber... a lot more than I would at other courses anyway.

TH

[AndrewB]

Do you think you could keep a ball on the first green?

I do, given how lofted a club I would be hitting in (even with the elevation change).  I certainly might have to hit it crisply, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

On the 4th hole, everything will bounce down into the hazard ...

... which will make it a lot harder to get yourself to hit driver.  There will be more thought required for that tee shot and laying farther back will be a much more attractive option for the risk-averse.

One could also try to land it on top of the mound in the fairway and run it up onto the green on 11.  Or hit a low running hook along the slope on 14 and get it up there close.

I do concede that getting the course firm and fast is likely not possible given the location of the course, as Mike pointed out to me the other day.

[Patrick Kiser]

Tom,

Does Lincoln qualify as a "Strip Club" course?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

Does Lincoln qualify as a "Strip Club" course?

Nah, not really.  It's too cheap and there's no shame in playing it.

TH