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Mike_Cirba

The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« on: January 10, 2008, 02:50:10 PM »
The Progress of Golf Architecture – June 16th, 1925

Golf architecture involves far more than the laying out of a definite number of holes each of a virtually standardized length.   That these lengths are standardized can hardly be questioned, even if the distances are only approximately equal and those decreed by what golfers think best.   There is general agreement that the desirable total length of 18 holes should be between 6,000 and 6,500 yards.   If one should judge from a large proportion of golf courses, the designer had no other end in view than that stated above, namely a course whose measurements approximate a standard.   There is seldom any indication of originality, except of the freaky kind, and rarely any conception of landscape beauty.  Apart from the relatively mathematical or mechanical features of golf course building, which any one can learn quickly, there lies the whole art, which will make or break the reputation of every golf architect.   Only the sluggish mind of an easily satisfied public has blinded it to the hideousness of most of our golf courses.   Sometimes the beauty of the surroundings helps to conceal the ugliness of the artificial work, though the lack of any harmony be only too obvious.   Fortunately, perhaps, many architects make their artificial work concealed or half-concealed, such as blind bunkers.   Otherwise its unloveliness would be too patent.

This may sound like the writing of one suffering a severe attack of indigestion.   It is meant to be the expression of feeling of one who is saddened by the absence of landscape beauty in too much of the artificial constructions on golf courses.   A sand bunker can be made a thing of beauty or a hideous gash.   Fortunately, many of the latter are build “blind”.   The artificial lines can be curves that fit in with those of the terrain, or they can be angular and jar every sense of harmony.   After all, a golf architect worthy of the name must be an artist, painting his ideas on the face of Nature as his canvas.  The painter retouches his work again and again.  Too many architects make the mechanical plans and leave practically all else to the construction gang.  Some indeed work on a cut-and-dried series of models, which are reproduced here, there, and yonder regardless of the terrain.   When you see one course built by such an architect, you can recognize at once every other course he has built.   This is true not in the sense that one can learn to recognize a Corot, or a Lansdowne, but true to actual mechanical details.   There is merit in the idea that holes of proven reputation ought to be copied – especially if these replicas apply as to principles but not as to details.   If however this idea is embalmed in a set of mechanical models, then there can obviously be no progress as long as these are followed, neither for the architect himself nor for his art.   To be blunt, such an architect is sacrificing his art to present commercial gain.

Perhaps the architect is not so much to blame as is the golfing public.   As long as there is no criticism, he may well believe that he is producing meritorious results.   A few courses built in recent years are examples of splendid landscape architecture.   The influence of these will doubtless stimulate golfers to demand better work from the architects.   To build artistic curves will require more of an architect’s time than he takes at present.  It can not be done, especially in its finishing stages, by a brief visit once a month or so.   That is too much like a landscape artist hiring a journeyman painter to paint pictures for him.   It can be done, of course, but the results are not inspiring.

Golf architects ought to be the leaders in promoting the progress of golf.   They are not.  Today many courses are being built by professional golf players that are as good as or better than those made by professional architects.   Except for a few notable exceptions in the profession, the term architect can hardly be used at present as relating to golf architects.   There are also a goodly number of amateurs who have done very beautiful work which can truly be called artistic.  Every architect owes it both to himself and to the golfing world to strive toward perfection.   We believe it will be more profitable to him to build fewer and better courses.  

There is progress for the betterment of golf architecture, but it is very slow.   It will continue to be slow as long as the artistic sense is sacrificed to immediate commercial gains.

James Bennett

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2008, 04:32:06 PM »
Wayne Morrison's grandfather?

 ;)
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Kyle Harris

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2008, 04:44:13 PM »
For some reason, this reads to me almost like it was from someone completely unaware and without knowledge of the game. Perhaps a noted landscape architect or other form of artist making a commentary as to why or why not golf course architects are in that league?

Just something about the tone that grasps me as a writer that is unfamiliar with the demands of the game, or the purpose of the features on the golf course...

Ken Moum

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2008, 05:30:32 PM »
I like it. And can't wait to hear who wrote it.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2008, 05:33:05 PM »
Good to know the Golden Age guys - many of whom were at or near their prime when this was written - suffered their own set of fools! ;D

The two obvious slams are at early American geometric design and Raynor. Or maybe just Raynor. It almost sounds like the National gets a pass, even if the length "ideals" critiqued are I think from CBMac.  

And its the manifesto for angles, lines and naturalistic curves, rather than straight edges.

I recall either Hunter or Behr ripping Raynor when he had the design contract at CP or in California, in similar words, but this doesn't read exactly as I remember.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2008, 05:36:08 PM »
I know where it came from, but it doesn't say who specifically wrote it...interesting read.

Tom_Doak

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2008, 09:51:28 PM »
The use of the word "embalmed" is terrific; I never managed to use that word in The Confidential Guide.

I also enjoy the British use of the word "desperate" as an adjective to describe the current state of one's game.

David Stamm

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2008, 10:06:51 PM »
I may be wrong, but this has Max Behr written all over it.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

wsmorrison

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2008, 10:21:45 PM »
James,

It may well have been! ;)

I share the author's opinions and wonderment that the mechanical style was accepted and at times preferred to a more natural, artistic style.

I like his point that if the public did not criticize, change would not be evoked.  He not only wanted to wake up the public but called on architects to be leaders in promoting the progress of golf.  

Pat Mucci and other MacRayBanks followers like to point out that these guys were giving the public what they wanted, even going so far as to poll for their desired hole designs.  I've said all along, they should have done better than give the people what they wanted and led them to better, more natural artistry.  

Modern architects can also be separated into two camps.  Those that give the public what they want and those that know what they want and guide the public.  There is a group of modern architects that promote progress in golf, while some simply give the people what they want.  Doak's The Confidential Guide is just that, a guide to what he thinks is great architecture.  His work on the ground, and those of other architects are even better guides.  

Flynn, MacKenzie, Thomas, Tillinghast, Colt, Fowler, Park, Jr., Wilson, Crump, and others adopted a natural school of golf architecture, away from concept imitation and the manufactured school of design.  Travis, Tillinghast, Behr, Flynn, MacKenzie and others rejected the work of Raynor, Banks, to a lesser degree Macdonald and certainly the steeplechase sort of golf architecture that preceded the classic era, or Golden Age.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 10:24:32 PM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2008, 11:00:08 PM »
Wayne:

You know you may be the only one on here who constantly questions why the Macdonald/Raynor/Banks School of Architecture (The National School ?) never attempted to get on-board the simultaneously evolving natural style and look of golf architecture through the teens and into the 1920s etc. the way others did.

And, I'm glad you are---I'm glad you did it and are sticking with it. The distinction and difference in look and style is pretty obvious from the so-called "natural" architects of that time.

The fact that others on here haven't been able to pick up on the subject and really discuss it is pretty curious and maybe  a little depressing. I think it's got to be either intellectual lack of honesty or at least intellectual laziness.

The fact is most all the courses of that Macdonald/Raynor/Banks style and look (The National School ?) generally play pretty great but that's never been your point anyway. You're just talking about the look of it and obviously wondering why they never got with the evolving "natural" style and look.

I know just where you're coming from and it's too bad the subject can't be better discussed on here as to its historical meaning and in the context of the interesting nuances in the evolution of golf architecture.

I'll do it with you if no one else will or can but I'm different from you because even though I sure can see the difference  in look and I do like the natural look better, I'm still fascinated by that National School look simply because I think it represents an era and an architect (Macdonald) which was seminal anyway. He (and they) probably didn't change not because they didn't know how to or didn't even appreciate (secretly) what the "naturalists" were doing but he probably just didn't want to admit that what he brought to architecture could be improved on in any way!

As I've said all along the thing that has to be developed more and developed better is not just what Macdonald brought to America in the context of golf and architecture and what he did for American architecture but to understand Macdonald the man better and what he was about, other than just that!!

It is not enough, in my opinion, to just pass him off as an increasing curmudgeon. I think it's important to understand why he may've been that way and gotten more that way as time went on and as the art form evolved in America.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 11:14:32 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2008, 11:14:46 PM »
Tom,

I think one of the reasons that there hasn't been much discussion is simply that Wayne...and probably you...and probably me, are viewed as coming from an advocate position of being biased in favor of our hometown heroes like Flynn, et.al. who advanced the naturalist cause.

I don't think the argument should be limited to regional turf-wars, with the NY/NJ contingent backing MacRaynorBanks and the Philly guys in the other corner.

Instead, what I'm interested in from a historical standpoint is why the early naturalist courses overseas by people like Willie Park, Jr., or Harry Colt, or Tim Simpson, didn't make their way into the Macdonald style when he imported great course design concepts in this country.   It's almost as if he wanted to so grandly pronounce the architectural concepts as an artistic and ego-driven hand of man creation that he purposefully accentuated all of the man-made features in a bold and obvious way, possibly to highlight exactly what was done and what the strategies should be, much like a Renaissance artist might layer on bright hues of paint if he were to go back in time to show a primitive man advanced methods of artistry.

TEPaul

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2008, 11:24:41 PM »
"Tom,
I think one of the reasons that there hasn't been much discussion is simply that Wayne...and probably you...and probably me, are viewed as coming from an advocate position of being biased in favor of our hometown heroes like Flynn, et.al. who advanced the naturalist cause."

Mike:

It may be some of that but I think it's more fundamental than that.

Macdonald/Raynor/Banks and that style and look has always been popular, certainly with this crowd, and he's even had a rather recent resurgence in popularity with this crowd and others.

I just think people who really love the style just don't want to even entertain what they percieve as negative comment of any kind.

I don't think it is negative to say what Wayne is saying---it's just recognizing an important distinction. Wayne, I think, just wants to talk about why that distinction lasted as long as it did and lasts into this very day.

I think there are some really fundamental questions about architecture here and what people both like and want!

Mike_Cirba

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2008, 11:29:37 PM »
Tom,

I enjoy that style, as well, and from a historical perspective, am fascinated at the various methodologies employed by various architects over the years.   As you say, it's a big world.

However, do you see any validity to my hypothesis that this was just CB painting with a very big brush, partly driven by ego, but partly driven by the fact that he saw himself as a teacher, educating the ignorant masses taking up the game in this country.

I think he was much less concerned that it didn't look natural.  Instead, I think he almost built NGLA as a boldly flashing "paint by numbers" primer in strategy for golf in this country, and almost hyper-accentuated the man-made features to make them (and their strategies) so obvious as to be unmissable, even by the blind and dumb.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 11:31:08 PM by MPCirba »

Bill Brightly

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2008, 11:53:52 PM »
Wayne Morrison's grandfather?

 ;)

James,

Laugh out loud funny!

Mike,

Hasn't been much discussion? I think we've beaten it to death.

You and Wayne continue to wonder why Macdonald, Raynor and Banks stuck with their templates and did not change to a naturalist style.  Isn't it logical to assume that they realized that they had a successful product and THEY saw no reason to change?

You seem to want to kill them (or do bad things on their graves...) because they never tried to be artists; they just built golf courses. And what they were building was almost always FAR superior to the vast majority of existing courses at the time. This is not a slam at Tilly, Ross, Flynn, etc., but rather, it recognizes the Bendelow's of the world, and all the other non-18 crude golf courses that were replaced with MacRaynor 18 holers.

I think Raynor, an engineer and land surveyor, may have had the talent to "grow" as you Philly guys seem to think he should have. But he chose to just "stick to the knitting." Deal with it!

Banks, on the other hand, an English teacher by training, had about two years of experience with Raynor before Seth died, and a slew of work in the pipeline. You cannot blame him for pulling out the templates and building the way he was taught. I have no doubt that Banks landed his first solo design, Hackensack, my home course, by assuring my club that he would build a MacRaynor, and our old board minutes suggest as much.

What is wrong with simply accepting the historical fact that for a very short 25 year time span there was a school of architects that relied on templates and built in a style that looked more engineered than others?

And you should be glad they did it so well and so often, because it leaves a body of work for you naturalist mamby-pambies to compare your work against!


Having said all that, I think it is a great article.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 12:00:47 AM by Bill Brightly »

Mike_Cirba

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2008, 12:29:44 AM »
Bill,

I think you may have mistaken me for someone else.

I don't recall ever getting much into the MacRayBanks discussions in a negative way about engineered styles prior.  Personally, as a self-appointed historian, I think it's pretty cool and I love playing those courses.

David Stamm

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2008, 12:33:02 AM »

 
   It's almost as if he wanted to so grandly pronounce the architectural concepts as an artistic and ego-driven hand of man creation that he purposefully accentuated all of the man-made features in a bold and obvious way,


Mike, I think that's an excellent point. TEP and I have had some discussions about the mentality of this country in the early part of the 20th century. He had made the comment to me, and I agree, that it seems (and Tom, forgive me for speaking for you) that the mindset of society in general was that things were progressing so quickly from an technilogical standpoint that the thinking was that man was close to conquering Mother Nature (or so they thought). The "unsinkable" Titanic for example was representative of this. Perhaps this is something that affected Mac/Ray/Banks whether conciously or not in their approach to the way they presented their courses. I know this sounds "out there", but perhaps this something worth discussing.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Neil_Crafter

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2008, 07:10:56 AM »
The article is from the Bulletin of the Green Section of the USGA and the author is................

James Bennett

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2008, 07:46:06 AM »
The article is from the Bulletin of the Green Section of the USGA and the author is................

Well, if it is not Wayne Morrison's grandfather, then it must be Sherman Peabody!

 :D
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

wsmorrison

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2008, 08:55:23 AM »
I agree with much of what Mike C has to say.  But I don't think Macdonald's ego is the principle reason for his rejection of the early naturalist architects mentioned.  I don't know why he enlisted polls to determine which holes to bring back.  Maybe he was a genius at marketing himself and that talent to be the icon of American golf and of the second phase of American golf architecture.  Certainly the articles that Joe Bausch has turned up and other sources indicate that some pretty influential people in golf were rejecting and criticizing Macdonald from a pretty early point.  Maybe Macdonald couldn't stand the constructive criticism.  He clearly had a difficult time with those that disagreed with him.  Yet his students, Raynor, Langford and Banks, who I don't think were as talented as Macdonald, perpetuated his brand of design.  Raynor and Banks seemed to distill it down to a simpler form, though on great sites.  

I believe their courses are enjoyable and challenging to play.  I never denied this.  I do think that we have not discussed the differences and point in time where the natural-look and manufactured-look coincided and consider why the natural-look eventually took hold.  Yes Raynor died in 1926, but by then the natural school was well on its way to subordinating the manufactured school.  Why did they reject such a powerful movement that predated their efforts in the UK and would postdate their efforts in the US and abroad?

I think Tom knows where I'm coming from since we've discussed it on trips and our red wine discussions.  I am not trying to slam Macdonald, Raynor, Banks or Langford.  I have tried to foster a discussion of the natural-looking school versus the manufactured-looking school for a long time here.  I mostly have not gotten anywhere with it.  Tom brings out an excellent point that regionalism and fan support tend to make any intellectual analysis perceived as negative and cause many supporters circle the wagons and say, "There go those Philadelphians again"  ;)

Bill thinks we've beaten this discussion to death.  I don't believe we have even begun to scratch the surface on this fascinating era.  It isn't about glorifying one group and denigrating another.  It is one of the most important and influential periods in golf architecture and much of it is being ignored.  

Alright, I appreciate the natural school more so than the manufactured.  We all know this.  But that is mostly from an aesthetic point of view, although I think there are maintenance considerations and the bunker styles (with flat bottoms) that go beyond aesthetics.  However, I still find much to admire and spark interest in the works of Macdonald, Raynor, Banks and Langford (who I'd like to learn more about).  NGLA is, despite my highest regard for Shinnecock Hills, one of my favorite places in golf.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 09:36:37 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark Bourgeois

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2008, 09:52:07 AM »
Wayne,

I'm up for this discussion -- but first you'll have to change your frame.  Macdonald didn't call his courses, specifically his "ideal" holes, "manufactured."  He called them "classical."

The notion was as the Classical School of real architecture, where fundamental concepts of the ancient designers were studied and applied to different regions.

(Which could get us into a fascinating distinction between the Gothic and the Classical schools of architecture as applied to Northern Europe -- ooh, that's a parallel I need to think more about: Gothic as your "natural" vs. Macdonald's Classical. I think what you may be getting at by "manufactured" really is closer to the notion of "locale-independent" -- "locale" taken to include not just the site's topography but the broader cultural / societal issues of the course's area.  To me and probably no one else, that would really float my boat. But as usual I'll spew that crap as we come to it in our discussion.)

So if you're up for Classical vs. Natural, I am, too, although like you I fear a monstrous pile of posts the great majority of which add nothing but random humor, me-toos, etc -- piffle and scrap which only serves to make it harder for anyone to penetrate and contribute genuine thought.

I propose you start a thread containing your position.  Meanwhile I will think about the Classical side.  Others can, as a starting point, contribute theirs, too.

Mark

Mark

TEPaul

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2008, 10:30:51 AM »
"However, do you see any validity to my hypothesis that this was just CB painting with a very big brush, partly driven by ego, but partly driven by the fact that he saw himself as a teacher, educating the ignorant masses taking up the game in this country.
I think he was much less concerned that it didn't look natural.  Instead, I think he almost built NGLA as a boldly flashing "paint by numbers" primer in strategy for golf in this country, and almost hyper-accentuated the man-made features to make them (and their strategies) so obvious as to be unmissable, even by the blind and dumb."

MikeC:

I don't think I'd say Macdonald was much less concerned his style didn't look as natural as some of the architecture to come---eg after NGLA. Before that time he just may not have thought much about the type of extreme dedication to the natural look that was to follow in America and had begun to happen in the inland English heathlands.

Macdonald was pulling hole models and architectural principles out of the linksland and he apparently assumed that those holes---eg Redan, Road, Eden, Alps, Sahara, Short, Leven, Biarritz etc etc were natural and were classical.

It is up to us to figure out how unnatural and man-made looking some of those holes or parts of them really were. A good example is the Road Hole. I mean was that natural? Was it natural looking? No it wasn't----it was apparently built by Alan Robertson as early as 1837-40, and anyone can see it is not a natural occurence and it didn't and doesn't look like one, it's very clearly made by man, and it certainly looks it as one looks around it at the natural surrounding grades. The same can probably be said about the front bunker of North Berwick's redan. Did that look natural back then when its amazingly vertical face was supported by boards--ie "sleepers"? Macdonald did the same thing with his orginal "Short" at NGLA.

Does that style and construction look natural to you? I doubt it, but to Macdonald it was "Classical" and the type of extreme naturalism in the look of architecture was in the future and he probably just wasn't thinking about things like that when he designed and made his hallmark NGLA.

Again, Macdonald was copying holes that he not only considered "classical" but most of them were the award winners in a vote taken around the turn of the century on the best or most popular holes of that time.

After that Macdonald may've gotten critical of others who were beginning to criticize the look of his "template" holes, even criticizing their attempts at naturalism and natural lines.

After-all with his remark about the obnoxiousness of greens that looked like "Marcel Waves"  he was certainly not talking about the geometric look of architecture with the highly straight-lined, right angled style of the preceding era in architecture, he was criticizing the look of some of the first attempts in America at curving, flowing lines in architecture which were apparently the first attempts over here at a natural look.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 03:34:22 PM by TEPaul »

Bradley Anderson

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2008, 11:14:41 AM »
Is it possible that Raynor's tools limited what he was able to do with his finished grades?

Whereas men like Ross and Flynn would deploy a team of horses to float an entire green or bunker site into one rolling mass of fill that tied in with it's surrounds, was Raynor not able to blend his features with that degree of subtlety simply because he didn't have those kinds of tools or skills in his operations? Is it possbile that he might have even wanted to naturalize his features to a greater degree when others where clearly moving in that direction, but he didn't have the time to stop and retool his operations to depend less on the steamshovel?

When Wayne began this dialogue it really bothered me, because I just love Raynors golf courses, but Wayne has made some very good points I have to admit.

Still, I wonder if Raynor was so heavily vested in a methodology and a franchise design style if you will, that he couldn't break away from it without compromising his obligations to clients and to the people who worked for him. The man's schedule was frantic - he literally worked himself to death.

Stop and think for a minute about how hard it is for a golf course architect to truly evolve his work. I get dizzy just thinking about how many plates he has to keep spinning. He has a huge team of people working for him who all have to be retrained with new tools and methodolgies. Who's going to pay for all of that with every new phase of design evolution?




Mark Bourgeois

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2008, 01:07:49 PM »
It is a misnomer to refer to some designs or design schools as "natural."  Nothing built by man is natural.  Tom Paul is getting closer with "extreme naturalism" and "naturalist" but I think even better is "Obscurantist."

Tom Paul makes a good point about the Road Hole and let's add Redan to that, too.  Both are named after manmade structures.

But remember Macdonald's so-called templates (he might have called them "ideals") were pretty flexible; sometimes he even combined them.

Lines and curves as well as symmetry appear in nature. And Macdonald writes of the importance of uneven lies and designing a course so that it accounted for wind.  It wasn't like he was blindly steamrolling the land so that he could plop down his ideal holes on a tabula rasa, although it should be noted he wrote how ideal holes solved the problem of how to create interesting holes from an uninteresting topography.

 So what makes Macdonald's work different from Flynn -- and for (in my opinion) an even-starker contrast, from MacKenzie?

Maybe he saw his work as bounded by nature but not needing to be cloaked in the skin of "nature."  He took a Classicist's view of an orderly nature, or man's ordering of nature.  Nature for Macdonald might well have included symmetry -- one element of Mac/Raynor's work which may strike many of us as "unnatural." But symmetry is an elemental principle of the natural world. (Yes, chaos is, too.)

For a Classicist, cloaking the manmade in the skin of "raw nature" might have been heresy: Obscurantism, the sense of hiding the hand of man to create the appearance of the natural, is intellectually dishonest.

The Greeks didn't try to make the Parthenon look like a fricking pile of random marble chunks, even as it is sited beautifully with respect to nature and the environment.  Like all built structures, it has a relationship to the environment, but it wasn't conceived as a natural element of the environment.

Another analogy: do you look at a painting of a landscape and judge the painting itself -- the frame, the canvas, the oils -- according to how "natural" it looks?  Or do you judge the artist's interpretation of what he saw?

So in the end, we're probably just arguing past each other.  It boils boil down to where you place or anchor this thing called "golf course design:"
1. In the larger world of "Architecture" and the built environment.
2. As self-referential to the game, with a logic and principles that are internal to and inherent in the game. (Think: "naturalism" as well as Wethered and Simpson's definition of architectural "schools" as fitting almost entirely within the scope of the game itself and not the wider field of architecture.)

Maybe Macdonald's most lasting (and unsung!) contribution to the field was not how he advanced the sport / game or even his contributions to design, but rather his anchoring of golf-course design in the larger field of architecture.

I don't know if he was right to do that -- I have a lot of problems calling golf course design "architecture" -- but he elevated the aspirations and significance of the field tremendously by associating his craft with the "five fine arts."

Mark

PS Bradley, I think that depends on whether Raynor thought what he was doing was wrong, yes?  (Can we infer from his heavy workload that his clients didn't think he was wrong?)

Sean_A

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2008, 02:14:34 PM »
Mark

Your post reminds me of what P Dickinson said about the opening few holes of Hunstanton (I think).  He said one shouldn't think that their nature is not seaside because their character is inland - much like the fisherman's children who moved to the city to make money.

Could you expand on your comments?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2008, 02:34:28 PM »
Isn't it true that Macdonald wanted to bring the culture of golf to America, along with the values of GCA that he perceived as classic? If so, wouldn't it follow that, to his way of thinking, he would bring to America an architectural style that would represent, or symbolize, an historical continuity?
After all, didn't he rail on about how ridiculous novelty was, for novelties sake, as it pertained to the trade?  

As for the article, it was written what, about 15 years after the construction of the National? Sounds like it came from someone who was as PO'ed that the 'Style' (probably different from his own) was still in demand as he was about it's limiting the progression of architecture. As we know, and as Wayne points out, the style of architecture eventually took off in another direction. It didn't neccessarily supplant the values of the former, it brought a new direction to the craft.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon