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TEPaul

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2008, 09:20:46 AM »
Wayne:

Seeing as both Piper and Oakley wrote a lot in the USGA Green Section Record using their names (note his name in the next article) including a series on great holes, I don't think I'd assume Piper wrote that article on the progress in golf architecture not using his name.

Also, remember a few of those letters from the "Agronomy" files where Piper and Wilson were discussing sending out a letter to all American architects asking them to contribute their feelings and opinions on golf course architecture? Obviously they were looking to drum up content for the Green Section Bulletin. That article may've just been one of them from some architect not wanting to use his name.

The only thing I can see about the identity of the author of that article is it sure looks to me like he was not a professional architect. It looks like he was one of the amateur ones, so I guess someone like Macdonald, Fownes, Thomas, Hunter or Behr might be likely candidates, or even someone like Travis.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 09:24:45 AM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2008, 10:15:32 AM »
The content of the article and the fact that Macdonald just wasn't approachable at the time, would seem to negate the possibility of Macdonald being the author.  Perhaps it was an amateur architect that authored this story or a member of the Green Committee.  In June 1925, the committee consisted of:

*CV Piper, Chairman
RA Oakley, Vice Chairman
*EJ Marshall (Toledo)
WA Alexander (Chicago)
Eberhard Anheuser (St. Louis)
Frank B. Barrett (NYC)
ACU Berry (Portland, OR)
JK Bole (TCC, Pepper Pike)
WF Brooks (Minneapolis)
CB Buxton (Dallas Texas)
AH Campbell (Toronto)
N Stuart Campbell (Providence)
WS Fownes, Jr. (Pittsburgh)
*Walter S. Harban (Washington, DC)
Thomas P. Hinman (Atlanta)
AJ Hood (Detroit)
Frederic C. Hood (Watertown)
Norman Macbeth (Los Angeles)
Sherrill Sherman (Utica)
Frederick Snare (Havana)
James L. Taylor (Brooklyn)
*Wynant D. Vanderpool (Newark, NJ)
*Alan D. Wilson (Philadelphia)
Frank L. Woodward (Denver)

* Executive Committee Member

Alan Wilson maybe?

TEPaul

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2008, 11:13:28 AM »
You know Wayne, I suspect it was Wynant D. Vanderpool. If you had a name like that would you actually put it on an article? I doubt anyone would believe the name.

Actually, it's a damn cool name and so from now on you will be known as Wynant D.V. Morrison VI
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 11:15:58 AM by TEPaul »

Mark Bourgeois

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2008, 12:19:12 PM »
What about Robert Hunter via Norman Macbeth?  1925, Hunter's in Pebble, out comes Seth Raynor with his models for Cypress.  MacKenzie plants a bug in Hunter's ear, Hunter cranks up the Underwood...

1926 rolls around and Hunter expands this little polemic into a monograph ("The Links"), which concludes with what appears to be a very pointed criticism of Raynor.

Mark

PS Tom Paul: more later...

BCrosby

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2008, 12:33:04 PM »
Until Mark so rudely jumped in line ;), I was going to suggest Hunter.

First, it sounds like him. Second, the "progress of architecture" thing is a theme that runs through The Links. I need to look through my copy at home, but I vaguely recall a passage in The Links that sounds something like this one. In particular I'm thinking of the reference to Corot and Landsdowne.  

Bob

TEPaul

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2008, 12:43:32 PM »
Bob:

Hunter would be a very likely candidate to me too, particularly if you could get a line on similarity in writing style or even the mention of something like Corot or Landsdowne in something else he wrote. That kind of reference in other writing by someone sure would be indicative.

One thing I've never known about Hunter is if he was an amateur architect and remained an amateur. As you probably know the USGA did create the so-called "architect exception" in their amateur status rules around 1920 so a lot of those guys who never took money in architecture previous to that were free to after that.

MarkB:

As you probably know Bob Crosby believes there's a very strong likelihood that a number of architects and analysts and critics cranked up their Underwoods big-time right around that time and produced some great articles and books (such as Hunter's "The Links") because of it. But Bob feels it was mostly motivated by their reaction to Joshua Crane and what he was writing and doing and I very much believe Bob is right about that.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 12:48:57 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2008, 06:11:41 PM »
Hunter sounds like a good choice to me, as well.   Either him or it was Alan Wilson telling Charlie and Seth to get with the program.  ;)

btw, is that the 18th hole at Castle Harbour?   Ever since it was labelled as such in Geoff Shack's book I've thought it was incorrect.   The 18th at CH has the ocean pretty close to the right boundary, doesn't it?

I believe it's the 13th hole at Mid-Ocean.   Can anyone concur?



« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 06:12:38 PM by MPCirba »

Mark Bourgeois

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #132 on: January 23, 2008, 11:22:33 PM »
Tom Paul,

I apologize for the delay -- here goes...

Macdonald located golf course design inside the larger field of “architecture.”

He accepted that his holes and courses needed to fit harmoniously into their surrounds, but in seeing golf course design as belonging to one of the “five fine arts” he would have been comfortable building holes that showed the hand of man: architecture is about structures that relate first to humans, second to the environment.

Architecture places a clear (albeit on occasion subtle) barrier between a structure and its environs.

In architecture, structures ought to somehow reflect their environment, whatever it may be.  They should repose in harmony – or make a statement about what’s wrong with that environment.  So I guess architecture can reflect or it can react.

But either way, architecture and environment are distinct.  Structures, no matter how "organic," don’t go so far as camouflage themselves in their environment; for that matter, they rarely use the same materials as their environment.  There is a barrier, a separation, between the architecture and the environment.

I’m pretty sure even design philosophies such as organic architecture and the International Style, to name two styles that address these barrier, material, and / or form issues – even those two philosophies make a distinction between structure and environment.

MacKenzie, Colt and I guess Flynn came along with a better “metaphor,” a way of integrating golf course design into the environment: I like Wayne’s “nature fakery.” Or: obscurantism, naturalism, etc.  The idea being golf courses are man-made, they fundamentally are “unnatural” and manufactured, but at the same time using certain, let’s call them ideas rather than rules or principles, using certain ideas identified in nature, they could design courses that had certain advantages, to the golfers who played them, to the men who had to build them, and to the clubs who had to pay for their construction and upkeep, over Macdonald’s “architectural” style.

Diverging from the metaphor of architecture, they embraced the forms, the materials, and the ideas of nature.  They went farther than Macdonald: these men more or less destroyed or overcame the notion of a barrier between a structure -- well, a man-made thing -- and its environment.  They manufactured courses just the same as Macdonald, but to Robert Hunter's comments, by working in the materials of nature, they effected a kind of sculpture.

All of this said, I am not sure Macdonald’s influence waned as much as we might think, or that he “lost.”  No one will confuse some of Pete Dye’s designs, with their railroad ties and apparently-manufactured patterns and shapes, nor some of Robert Trent Jones’s designs, with their “signature” holes, nor Tom Fazio’s curlicued bunkers – surely no one is fooled or deceived into believing these are natural, “found” elements!

Mark

PS I think maybe the criticism of plasticine models was directed not only at Raynor but at Fowler, too.  He took a transcontinental train trip from New York to the West Coast in February 1920.  He wrote that on his return trip, "I made eight models and darned all my socks!"

PPS Wayne, did you know MacKenzie leveled harsh criticism at Banks's Whippoorwill?

wsmorrison

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #133 on: January 24, 2008, 07:10:40 AM »
Mark,

Would you please post MacKenzie's comments on Whippoorwill?

I don't think this should be a question of who won or lost, even though at times I seem to fall into that trap.  Behr, MacKenzie, Flynn, Colt, Thomas, Tillinghast, etc preferred to take what the land was giving as much as possible, somewhat at odds of the National School approach and take extra care to have what was man-made appear natural or more so, something the National School simply wasn't concerned with.  Those that follow a more naturalist style did so for reasons of aesthetics and maintenance.  

Clearly these men felt that man would enjoy being exposed to a more natural setting and experience resulting in a pastoral feeling than surrounded by the artifices of man.  Yet there was diversity within naturalist architects.  

Why MacKenzie went overboard with systematic mounds, bowl sites for greens and bunkers in upslopes behind greens is a bit odd.  It looked like it was more about upstaging nature's artistry than being in harmony with it.  The fact that this only took place in California asks the question if these features were the product of MacKenzie or his crews.  

Flynn was systematic in bunkering a good number of par 3s, especially those on ridges, which he liked to employ.  He would often have a single bunker at green elevation on one side of the opening to the green and multiple bunkers on the opposite side below green level.  This arrangement leads to two different recoveries.  The recovery from a shallow bunker at green level had to be played to a green sloping away from you.  The deeper bunkers below the green required a higher recovery to a green that usually sloped towards the player.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 08:06:58 AM by Wayne Morrison »

BCrosby

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #134 on: January 24, 2008, 07:33:55 AM »
Mike -

That's Mid-O.

Bob

BCrosby

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #135 on: January 24, 2008, 07:44:32 AM »
The intersting thing to me about the Behr/MacKenzie branch of the "naturalist" school is that for them building a course to look "natural" wasn't just an aesthetic preference. It wasn't for them just a matter of liking one sort of "look" over another.

It was important to their design philosophy that golf courses actually fooled golfers into thinking they were playing on natural features. That perceived connection with nature - albeit artificial - was not just surface dressing for them. It was central to how they believed golfers ought to engage with the game. Their naturalism flowed from a vision of how golf ought to be played and enjoyed.  

Bob  

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #136 on: January 24, 2008, 09:05:54 AM »
Wayno,

I believe that the swale is cut to green/fairway height in the photos of the 18th at CH and the 9th at Yale.

I believe that the angle of the photo, relative to the angle of the upslope of the swale is what's causing the darker appearance.

The greens reflect the light while the closer to vertical slopes don't.

Alternatively, If you compare those holes to the 9th at Piping Rock, it may be that the entire front portion and the swale were at fairway height.

But, I'd wager TEPaul's farm that the swale was NOT cut to rough height.

Bradley Anderson

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #137 on: January 24, 2008, 09:29:58 AM »
Another thing to remember about these height of cut issues on those early golf courses is frequency of cut.

With those older mowers, you would have two entirely different playing surfaces if you cut one area 4 times a week, and another are only twice per week with the same mower.

It could have been that the front half of the Barritz green was cut with the same mower at the same height of cut, but not as frequently. And for that reason, photos are not necessarily reliable evidence of what the intentions were. The photo could have been taken on a Monday, or after a rainy period when things were really growing and they couldn't keep up with it. Maybe a club would increase its mowing frequency of the front half of the green in the weeks and days leading up to it's most important events?

Even these old photos of really hairy bunkers can be misleading. When a photo was taken of a bunker on the 12th hole, lets say, the hand sickle crew was only up to the 10th hole in their sequence, and if the photo had been taken of the 12th hole a day later, you would see that the intent was actually for a fairly groomed bunker face.

wsmorrison

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #138 on: January 24, 2008, 09:53:56 AM »
I agree that the photographic evidence isn't conclusive.  But let's say for a minute that the swale was at rough height, would would you could conclude about the design and maintenance intent?

Bradley Anderson

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #139 on: January 24, 2008, 10:59:09 AM »
Wayne,

I am not sure if I understand your question.

If it was at rough height that would confuse the hell out of me because the Barritz was always the longest one shotter in the Mac/Raynor mix and it was clearly designed for a flyer shot to run through the swale. And that front half of the green is flanked by flat bunkers, which also indicates that it was designed for balls to bounce and run on.

My point is I believe the full design intent on all of those older golf courses may have only been in play for parts of the golf season, depending on the ebb and flow of several factors: e.g. the cost and availability of labor (which in some parts of the country fluctuated on a month by month basis), the club's tournament schedule, and the weather conditions, just to name a few.

On a Mac/Raynor course however, these factors were probably not as limiting because they were generally the most elite clubs with presumably the biggest budgets. BUt even still you could get a picture that was taken at an odd time, and deduce totally misleading ideas.


wsmorrison

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #140 on: January 24, 2008, 11:34:20 AM »
"I am not sure if I understand your question."

That makes two of us, Bradley  ;)

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it is hard to look back in time to discern architectural intent without stripping away today's perspective.  

Are we certain we know what the original intent was with the Biarritz design template?  For years, many thought that the landing areas before the swale were intended to be at green height.  It wasn't until somewhat recently that we question that assumption and have found evidence to support a different maintenance practice.  

It may well be that all examples of the Biarritz template had fairway height cuts in the level areas before the swale.  If we now know that assumptions may be questioned, how can we assume to know how the swales themselves were maintained at different times as well?  Granted photos are only snapshots in time and don't tell us how they were regularly maintained or altered over the course of a year or years.  

It stands to reason that the swales were kept as fairway height...there was the Biarritz shot that Tom Paul talks about; that is a low running draw that would disappear into the swale and reappear on the green end.  But what if the hole was maintained that way only during certain periods of the year that were conducive to that shot?  What if the swale was kept as rough in other seasons, with less play or reduced maintenance budgets?  

It is interesting to consider that the hole design can play very differently depending upon how it is maintained.  I'm just wondering if our assumptions regarding how it was maintained are reliable.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 11:35:27 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Bradley Anderson

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #141 on: January 24, 2008, 12:04:32 PM »
Wayne,

Have you ever noticed how every hollywood historical or period piece foists the zietgiest of its day on the old stories? Like wow....like I never knew that Pocahantas was like a feminist! Hmmm.

Every generation does this with the past, and I am sure we do the same thing on this site without even knowing it. I am not even sure if the more time that I spend in the past is actually doing more to weaken my bias, or strengthen it. You can use history as a proof text for any bias if you are clever enough.

There is really good book on this subject called the Validity of Interpretation. A must read for anyone who studies history, on how to parse for authorial intent.





TEPaul

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #142 on: January 24, 2008, 12:08:17 PM »
MarkB:

I'm responding to your reply #134 on this thread.

In my opinion, when one tries to draw some parallels or comparisons between golf course "architecture" and other types of "architecture" I'd say they should limit those parallels or comparisons to just a very few types of architecture, and that building architecture (buildings) is generally not one of them.

I'm not aware of a single golf architect who drew comparisons or parallels in building architecture to his art form. I think the reason is the purposes and function and materials (let's call "materials" the "medium" for reasons I'll explain later) are just so much different in building architecture to golf course architecture.

But a number of golf architects, including Macdonald, did draw comparisons and parallels to landscape architecture in what they did in golf course architecture.

Macdonald, in writing, did mention Prince Puckler and I believe Lancelot "Capability" Brown and perhaps Humphrey Repton, all landscape architects or designers, and what they were attempting to create compared to some of the things he was attempting to do and other golf architects should attempt to do. Mostly Macdonald just mentioned them in that context in that a golf architecture should stick to classic "principles" and not get into blatant novelty and novel innovations which were not time-tested in a classic "art" sense.

I think by that time we also know that the art form of landscape architecture which obviously was being applied to golf course architecture essentially worked off the recognized  "Art Principles" of "Harmony", "Proportion", "Balance", "Rhythm" and "Emphasis".

Those are just the art principles of landscape architecture as often applied to golf course architecture. But perhaps the most important factor is what Max Behr called the "medium" of golf course architecture and how dramatically it differed from the other "mediums" of other art forms and what that meant in the art form of golf course architecture.

Behr said, for instance, the "medium" of the paint artist is paint and he has complete 'freedom to fancy' over that "medium" and is thus its master. But that the golf course architect's "medium" is the earth and he does not have complete "freedom to fancy" over his medium and only Nature itself does and therefore Nature is consequently that medium’s “master.” The reason for that, obviously, is the ability and capacity of Nature's forces to constantly change that "medium" (earth) including to destroy its formations with primarily wind and water.

And this is why Behr proposed that a golf architect should endeavor to imitate natural landforms not just for aesthetic reasons but for reasons of its ability to withstand the forces of Nature’s wind and water. Behr referred to these two necessities as something that could create what he referred to as “Permanent Architecture”----eg if the aesthetic looked natural to the golfer he would be less likely to criticize it and want to alter it and if the formations of man-made golf architecture utilized the strongest formations of nature wind and water would be less likely to destroy it.


« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 12:15:39 PM by TEPaul »

Bradley Anderson

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #143 on: January 24, 2008, 12:18:26 PM »
Wayne,

To finish my thoughts on the last post. Even if you could find an essay written by MacDonald or Raynor on their design intent for the Barritz hole, you would still have to parse it for what their meaning was, and that is basically done with what they taught us in 7th grade grammer, and by emptying our mind of all our paradigms.

Back in those days most of those men were classically trained, and they were very good at writing exactly what they meant.

I can not find anything written about why Raynor put a layer of cinders under his greens. I think it was to control worms, which were a terrible problem on putting greens. The cinder layer would have kept the worms from migrating into the putting surface. I was out with Tim Davis at Shoreacres when he was expanding the putting surfaces to their original perimeters, and he was showing me the cinder layers with a deep soil probe. He handed me the probe and asked me to guess where the original perimter was on the front of 17. That was so cool! Anyways, Tim has found no cinders under the front half of the Barritz. So the soil probe and the shovel are the other tools that we have to go on with regard to the past.




Bradley Anderson

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Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #144 on: January 24, 2008, 12:48:03 PM »
"It stands to reason that the swales were kept as fairway height...there was the Biarritz shot that Tom Paul talks about; that is a low running draw that would disappear into the swale and reappear on the green end.  But what if the hole was maintained that way only during certain periods of the year that were conducive to that shot?  What if the swale was kept as rough in other seasons, with less play or reduced maintenance budgets? "

If that is indeed the concept, wouldn't that make the Biarritz hole the only hole ever conceived that was designed with two maintenance options? I can't think of any other example of a golf hole that has built into it, two  different maintenance policies, each providing different playing characteristics.

TEPaul

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #145 on: January 24, 2008, 01:21:22 PM »
Bradley:

I think your take on the reason for a cinders or a cinder layer is exactly right. Matter of fact an old article was put on here fairly recently where it was claimed that process was invented. I cannot now remember what or where the course was but I think it was in the Northeast.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #146 on: January 24, 2008, 01:47:36 PM »
There are no nutritional benefits to cinders, and they don't have drainage properties that surpass stone. All I can think is they kept the worms of the portion of the green that was for putting.

If there are no cinders under the front half of other Bairritz greens then that would mean that Raynor did not intend for that portion of the green to be putting surface, and that would seemingly solve the problem.

But even now we don't know for certain if that's what his preference was. Maybe he would have prefered to see that section cut at putting green height but it was too big of a surface to maintain.

One thing I know for certain is there is nothing cooler than hitting to the first half of a Bairritz that is cut at putting green height and watching the ball disappear and reappear on the second half.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #147 on: January 24, 2008, 11:27:30 PM »
Tom,

I very much appreciate that last post of yours.  I think I was trying to get more at the concept of "architecture," and specifically as it relates to what's built and what surrounds what's built. I didn't do too well, huh?

So Macdonald threw the word "architecture" around either indiscriminately or in a specific reference to landscape architecture, but then how do you define the "architecture" part of landscape architecture?

Why is it called "architecture"? How did it come to get linked up with "landscape?"  Maybe the ideas of landscape "architecture" relate back to structural architecture.  Didn't the Baroque English gardens value highly the Platonic notion of ideal forms revealed in nature -- those gardens were highly formalistic, weren't they?

That in a sense seems to provide a lineage that helps explain how Macdonald could espouse "nature" yet create holes that very obviously were manufactured.  What explains this disconnect?  How could he call something like the green-dish-of-Flan hole "natural?"

The first known use of the term landscape architecture came in 1840.  That's twenty years after Repton died and longer still after Brown's death.  They didn't know the term.  They used the term "landscape garden."

I don't know why the change occurred.  Maybe someone like you who knows the field better can explain.

And maybe it doesn't matter.  I sure would like to know though why it's called golf course "architecture" or now even why it's called landscape "architecture."

I suspect in the case of the latter it's down to the idea of designing entire landscapes: not just the gardens, or even the pathways, but also the roads -- and to relate all of this to the structural architecture.

I do have a quote dated 1865 from Frederick L Olmstead that reads, "I am all the time bothered with the miserable nomenclature of L.A. Landscape is not a good word, Architecture is not; the combination is not -- Gardening is worse."

Ooh, hold on, I just remembered something: didn't Wethered and Simpson reference John Ruskin's "Stones of Venice?"  Does that count?

Mark

PS Wayne, Clifford Roberts joined Whippoorwill and brought up MacKenzie to take a look around.  This was shortly after Roberts first met Mac. Here's Roberts:

"Several member were on hand to greet the doctor and, after he had looked around for an hour or two, they pressed him at lunchtime for his opinion.  He responded by saying, 'It's most remarkable,' and that was all they could get from him.  On our way back to the city I asked what he meant by the answer he gave my friends.

"'I meant,' said the Doc, 'that it's most remarkable that anyone could be damn fool enough to try to build a course on ground that is so obviously unsuitable for golf.'

"I had taken MacKenzie to see Whippoorwill expecting him to admire it.  Needless to say, I felt considerably deflated, especially since it suddenly dawned on me after hearing his brief summation that the doctor was completely right."

PPS Behr's concept of "permanent architecture:" did he get this from MacKenzie's notion of "finality" in architecture?

TEPaul

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #148 on: January 25, 2008, 07:39:45 AM »
MarkB:

I don't think I'd get too concerned about anyone's use of the term "architecture". The word can be and has been used in a spectrum of ways and applications from the specific to the general. Macdonald in golf and Olmsted in landscapping were probably no different. It can be as general as something that is designed and constructed.

But I think it certainly is interesting to try to track the evolution of golf courses in the context of the histories of design and architecture, primarily landscape architecture, because that probably is its closest and most parallel art form, all things considered.

I'm sure man-made and straight-lined golf architecture probably could be tracked somehow all the way back to man's apparent original inclination to design and build things that way all the way to the glories of building in Greece and Roman, particularly their garden and outdoor layouts which were a fairly geometric style that came to be considered "classic". (Many GB students and interested parties in that kind of thing came to go on what was referred to as "The Grand Tour").

However, I believe the original rudimentary straight-lined architecture of golf was probably done to be more functional simply to support earthforms from disintegrating and much less of an "art" thought or application or intended aesthetic.

Certainly John Ruskin and his "Stones of Venice" is important in this evolution (read Tom MacWood's five part article on here called "Arts and Crafts Golf" for a chronicle of how Ruskin figured in this).

As far as landscape architecture, design or gardening (whatever one wants to call it) is concerned I think it's quite important in the history and evolution of golf architecture, particularly as it came to be more naturalized in its lines and formations and look and style.

I feel the ideas and landscape design expressions and applications of an early English landscape designer (late 17the and 18th century) such as Lancelot Brown and later Repton and others were important in the development of golf course architecture, albeit not intentionally as they both preceded the beginning of man-made and man designed golf course architecture.

Brown began to alter some of the massive English estate landscapes and gardens from the existing geometric and classic Greek and Roman models of the 17th and 18th centuries to more naturalized lines based on what was referred to as the basic "Serpintine" angle (curvilinear and somewhat random instead of straight-lined and geometric).

I don't know if it was much preplanned but eventually (in the late 19th century) some early inland English golf courses got done on some of Brown's and Repton et al massive English Landscape designs. Those massive landscape designs were generally done on what was referred to as "park" or "parkland" estates and that's apparently how the style of the "parkland" golf course came to be. The interesting thing about some of those early English inland golf courses is although they were built within the more naturalized lines of an English landscape designer such as Brown or Repton, the golf features of those courses were still noticeably geometric. But after a while it seems the lines of the prexisting landscape designs probably influenced the lines of the golf architecture in those parkland estates and they too became less geometric and more natural in look and form.

See how it all evolved in some curious and also probably in some almost accidental ways?

PS:

It's hard to say if Mackenzie came up with his idea of "finality" in architecture before or after Behr came up with his ideas on "Permanent" architecture, but I think it's pretty safe to say they were each very aware of one another on that idea and probably talked about it a good deal. Behr and Mackenzie were pretty close both actually and philosophically on golf architecture. Today we could probably refer to the two of them that way as "birds of a feather."  ;)

One similarity about the two of them at least philosophically on golf and architecture that Bob Crosby and I have been discussing recently is it seems towards the end of the 1920s they were both attempting to promote, or about to, the idea that "rough" had no real place in their designs and courses.

It just could be that the original design and layout of ANGC was the ultimate in that expression (no rough) and it also just may be it was almost generally either misunderstood or neglected in that way (no rough) fairly quickly. In that particular way and area (the liberal use of rough) Joshua Crane may've won and the likes of Behr and Mackenzie may've lost.

But have no worries as Bob or Bob and I intend to absolutely crucify Joshua Crane shortly on that score almost eighty years after the fact. We believe we have uncovered historic and factual evidence to prove that Crane was a rampant penologist in golf and archtiecture, as well as a unattractive curmudgeon, very likely a child molester, a sot, a wonker, a hater of small animals and just sort of a general inflexible and totally opinionated asshole!

« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 08:12:46 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re:The case for Architectural Criticism - A 1925 Manifesto
« Reply #149 on: January 25, 2008, 09:01:11 AM »
TE, Bradley - just fyi re cinder greens

In a 1910 article by R.S. Emmet called "Reconstruction of Golf Greens", he describes work using a coal cinder base on the greens at the Mohawk Golf Club at Schenectady (and in general at sites with poor/clay soil) because:

"This structure has good water absorbing capacity and by capillary action moisture is presumably drawn to some extent from the sub-soil. In the dryest weather comparatively little
water is required. The condition of quick drainage from the surface with moisture below seems to help the germination and growth of new grass. Greens made in this way are in good order for play very early and late in the season, and under all weather conditions, and are never muddy. The action of worms, particularly large ones, has been very materially checked on the cinder greens at Schenectady."

Peter