What's a good discount to offer player's with temp greens and tees?

[Mike Mosely]

The Hominy Hill thread got me to thinking about something:

The last time I was there, the green fee was $62...but they had 14 temp tees and six temp greens, and they were still charging full price.

Does this strike anyone as unfair?  For a public facility with so many temp tees and temp greens to still charge full boat?

The guy said "hey we have to pass the cost off to you.  Its not like your getting less than 18 holes."

I thought it was, so I thanked him politely and went somewhere else...

What should public courses do in that situation?  How much of a discount should they offer if they are "under construction?"

[Sam Morrow]

I think there should be a discount but I will say this after working in public golf, if you tell the golfer when they make the tee-time that their is construction they usually don't care. People will get pissed when you charge them full price and don't give fair warning about it. That's just how I feel about it.

[Mike Sweeney]

In order to answer properly, it would help to know:

1. Where did you go instead, how much was it and how long did it take you to drive there?

2. What time of year was it?

3. Were you a walk up or did you make a reservation?

[Mike Mosely]

Mike:

1.  I don't remember, no where special, I paid about $30 and it took me half an hour of my time out of my way.

2.  high summer.

3.  I was a walkup, but called first and they didnt tell me about construction till I got there.

[Tim Leahy]

18 holes so 5% discount per hole with a temp green or tee. Unless one hole is so outstanding that altering it would really change the experience.

[Tom Huckaby]

It seems to be a common occurrence that courses have temp greens or tees, a less common thing that the customer is warned about such.  When that happens - and when God forbid a discount is given - that's when a happy, loyal customer is produced.

So from the perspective of the operator, I guess it depends on supply and demand and how much you want to risk pissing off your customers, and how much you care about making them happy.

Here in the SF Bay Area, home of one of the highest golfer to course ratios in our nation, rare is the place that gives either warning or discount.  What do they care?  The tee sheets are going to remain full regardless.

I'd hope, however, that we are the exception, not the rule.

And out there in the real world where happy customers matter, I'd have to say warning customers is a given, and 33% discount would seem fair.  If they can't live with the loss of current revenue, then a coupon for 25% off a future round would also seem to be the least they can do.

That's my way more than two cents, anyway.

TH

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike:

1.  I don't remember, no where special, I paid about $30 and it took me half an hour of my time out of my way.

2.  high summer.

3.  I was a walkup, but called first and they didnt tell me about construction till I got there.

Based on that, especially the high summer, I would say $31 or 50%, but more importantly they need to lose the attitude that they are doing you a favor. If everyone took a class in customer service from Disney.......... They gladly have people wait in line for 60 minutes for a 2-3 minute ride.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike, if everyone took lessons from Disney, wouldn't the world be as happy as the happiest place on earth?

Just a very weird thought.

But well said, my friend.

TH

[Mike Sweeney]

http://www.disneyinstitute.com/

[Mike Mosely]

I was taken aback by both the position (sorry, you pay for it) and the way the information was communicated, the guy acted more like a beer vendor at a Mets game.

[Kalen Braley]

Gotta go with Huck on this one...

This has happened to me, and always left a sour taste in my mouth.  But throw a few bucks back my way in a discount, and you'll earn back for more in goodwill.  

[JLahrman]

I don't think you consider how far the alternatives are.  I think the course staff needs to ask themselves how much of the experience the golfer has to give up with the course in its current condition.

For 14 temp tees and 6 temp greens, I think you'd have to take off at minimum a good 25%.

[Tom Yost]

I appreciate when a golf course advises of any unusual conditions like recent green aerification. That way I can choose for myself if I want to play there or go elsewhere.

I would definitely want to be advised of ANY temporary tees or greens and would be highly pissed if I paid full price to play a course with SIX temp greens.

Tom

[Evan_Smith]

I have the opinion that a golf course charges full price for a course in full play and decent condition.  You may pay more for some courses because they are always in better condition.  When I get to a course and greens or tees are out of play, or the greens were very recently aerated and they didn't inform me when I called and they are still charging full price, that's when I get upset.

To this day, the only course that informed me prior to booking a tee time that they had aerated their greens was Southern Pines Elks Club.  My dad and I couldn't believe it and until recently we were very loyal customers (that is until the overall conditions of the course made it not so enjoyable to play).  Also, in my trip to Salt Lake City in mid October I played Thanksgiving Pointe (great course) and because most of the greens were aerated and they were aerating the tees that morning they were charging the winter rate.  It's policies like this that will bring me back and happily pay full rate even though it's easily the most expensive course in the area.

I don't understand why golf courses think they can charge full rate for a sub-standard product.  Would you pay full price for a suit that had an obvious flaw?  We as golfers need to stand up to these courses and let them know this practice is not going to be tolerated any longer!

[Sean_A]

I have the opinion that a golf course charges full price for a course in full play and decent condition.  You may pay more for some courses because they are always in better condition.  When I get to a course and greens or tees are out of play, or the greens were very recently aerated and they didn't inform me when I called and they are still charging full price, that's when I get upset.

To this day, the only course that informed me prior to booking a tee time that they had aerated their greens was Southern Pines Elks Club.  My dad and I couldn't believe it and until recently we were very loyal customers (that is until the overall conditions of the course made it not so enjoyable to play).  Also, in my trip to Salt Lake City in mid October I played Thanksgiving Pointe (great course) and because most of the greens were aerated and they were aerating the tees that morning they were charging the winter rate.  It's policies like this that will bring me back and happily pay full rate even though it's easily the most expensive course in the area.

I don't understand why golf courses think they can charge full rate for a sub-standard product.  Would you pay full price for a suit that had an obvious flaw?  We as golfers need to stand up to these courses and let them know this practice is not going to be tolerated any longer!

Evan

You may have a different standard of what are acceptable conditions than me, but I played Southern Pines last Easterish and the course was in decent shape.  For $20 (its a steal at twice the price), it was the best deal you can get in the Pinehurst area.  Though the patrons in the clubhouse were a bit loopy.  It was like walking back into a 70s lounge including the prices!

Ciao

[RJ_Daley]

I agree that one should turn right around and walk out, if they didn't tell you of the significant construction.  The 14 temp tees are one thing of annoyance but not a total round killer, but 6 temp greens is hardly even a round of golf at all.  At $62 a round regular rate, I can't imagine even asking $20 under those circumstances, and that they should be very much playing up the idea that they want you to come back when the project is finished.  Sometimes I hear these sort of stories about salesmanship arrogance, and lack of customer appreciation, and I can't even believe entities like that can stay in business.  But, if the area golfers are that conditioned to being crapped upon, well they deserve it, I guess.  

Mike, you done the right thing, walk out!

Some years ago, we had a pre-GCA.com group at Southern Pines, Pine Needles.  Mid-pines areated a day before, and charged our group half price, which was fair I thought.  The course was still a nice play, even if the putts were as one would expect on recent aeration.  You still got the flavor of the Donald Ross design.  Actually, the club house staff didn't really even want to allow any play, but because we were a bunch of GCA nut cases, they did the half price offer for us, while no one else was playing there at all.  They were even appologetic to ask for half price.  

[Tom Huckaby]

It's easy to say one should walk out when one has other choices.

Here in the SF Bay Area, are choices are few if not non-existent.  A weekend tee-time on a decently-priced public course is something to be zealously cherished and guarded.  If the course conditions are substandard the choice is either play or go home; it's not like you can drive a mile and find another place to play.  Most golfers are addicted enough to play on crap rather than not play at all; so they go ahead and play.  That's the reality in a area with huge golfer to course ratio.

And Dick, your story about Southern Pines illustrates one of what has to be at least 10,000 key differences between the Carolinas and California.  Oh well.

In any case, I have received a discount for temp greens here once... darn it I can't remember where... but I do remember being very impressed.  I guess I wasn't made a return customer though!

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Perhaps its because I've been "surprised" one too many times, but in the fall I will always ask if the greens are either recently aerated or plan to be by the date I'm playing.

Based on that I can make my plans accordingly and go with another option.  (Sorry Huck, there are some benefits to living in Utah)  

[Evan_Smith]

Evan

You may have a different standard of what are acceptable conditions than me, but I played Southern Pines last Easterish and the course was in decent shape.  For $20 (its a steal at twice the price), it was the best deal you can get in the Pinehurst area.  Though the patrons in the clubhouse were a bit loopy.  It was like walking back into a 70s lounge including the prices!

Ciao

Sean
     I really have a high tolerance for quality of conditions, especially if the price is right, but the conditions I encountered at Southern Pines in 2003-2005 were starting to affect my enjoyment of the golf course.  I've played the course around 20 times including 10 times in 2 weeks when I was in Pinehurst with my Dad (who is a member of Pinehurst).  It was easily the best deal anywhere and I love the course.  However, the last straw was in Apr. 2005 when after playing 18 at Hyland Hills, my buddy and I went to SP to get in another quick 18 (we can play in 2 hours if there is nobody slowing us down.  We went into the Proshop and the guy looked at us a bit funny when we said we could get it in, but sent us on our way.  The conditions weren't great, but for $28 neither of us cared since the layout is so good.  When we got to the 10th hole the guy that looks after the carts came out and mummbled something to us.  I thought he said after this hole we would be good, meaning that the people in front of us were quiting or something.  Then when we're on the 13th fairway he comes back out and says we have to leave because it's time to close up.  There was still 45 minutes of light left!!!!  This wasn't the pro (though he may have instructed this guy to do so) but the cart guy was kicking us off the course.  The pro never mentioned that they would be closing early, or that the carts needed to be back by a certain time.  It was really annoying and there was nobody to complain to because the Proshop was locked up.  Needless to say, we cancelled our tee time at the course later in the week.  I hope with the new management company running the place, events like this don't happen anymore.  Though, they are charging way more these days.  My Dad and his buddies were there in mid Oct. and they wanted $80 for a green fee.  They played elsewhere for nearly half the price.  It wasn't necessarily the money, but without seeing the course recently, he didn't want to chance it not being in good shape and paying that kind of money.  If it were $40-50, they would have done it, but when you get into the $80 range I think you can expect something more than SP had delivered in the recent past.

[Mike Mosely]

I'm glad to see so many of you took the same egalitarian position I did.  I was so turned off by the whole thing - not just that there were 14 tees and 6 greens being renovated, but that there was the full rate to be charged with no warning in advance - that I don't think I'll play Hominy Hill again.  Am I missing anything by not playing it?

[Evan_Smith]

I just hope that if more golfers start to take the stand that paying full rate for a golf course that isn't up to standards (temp greens, just aerated etc.) that these course's will take the hint and offer a reduced rate.  I understand that in certain areas there may not be the option of going somewhere else, but we golfers should not just stand by and politely give them our money for a sub-standard product.  We need to change this mentality that a public course is doing us a favour by letting us play their course.  If it weren't for the golfers, the course would lose money.  We need to complain to the correct people.  Complaining to the person behind the counter isn't always the best option.  Asking to see the Head Pro or GM is probably going to get you further since it could be their money on the line if people aren't playing.  If a course normally charges $70, are they going to turn away a group that is willing to pay $50 because of the reduced conditions?  In my mind the course either gets $200 or nothing!  We have them at our mercy.  Unless the course has a waiting list for walk-ons, that tee time now generates zero revenue.  We need to be more forceful in refusing to pay full rate when the course isn't up to standards.  In case you haven't noticed, this is something that I feel strongly about.  You wouldn't pay for all of your groceries and then leave a couple of bags behind.  You wouldn't pay for a suit that only had one sleeve!  Why do you pay for a golf course that isn't fully in play?  The public golf courses are in the service industry.  Let's make them earn our money!!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Evan:

That's a great sentiment, and I agree in principle.

However, if I've gotten the hall pass to play, and made the tee time (both hellish processes that I do not wish on anyone), and I reach a course only to find out it has a few temp tees and greens, well.... I'm gonna play regardless.  Things are a little different here.

Hopefully you understand.

The good news is this hardly EVER happens - I think I've faced this maybe twice in my 25 years of golf in the Bay Area.  Most courses let you know about temps in advance, then it's up to you.  Surprise temps are few and far between.

TH

[Evan_Smith]

Evan:

That's a great sentiment, and I agree in principle.

However, if I've gotten the hall pass to play, and made the tee time (both hellish processes that I do not wish on anyone), and I reach a course only to find out it has a few temp tees and greens, well.... I'm gonna play regardless.  Things are a little different here.

Hopefully you understand.

The good news is this hardly EVER happens - I think I've faced this maybe twice in my 25 years of golf in the Bay Area.  Most courses let you know about temps in advance, then it's up to you.  Surprise temps are few and far between.

TH

Tom
   I certainly understand that not eveyone has the option, and I pointed out as much in my post.  But what I'm trying to say is that if more people complained, then maybe something will change.  

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Evan,

As one who is also very familiar with golf in the bay area, Huck is really on the money on this one.  With a poor golf course to golfer ratio, especially in the south bay, it really is a take it or leave it kind of deal.

You would not believe how early one has to show up in the morning to play as a walk on if you don't have a tee time.  And were talking Doak 1's and 2's here, nothing special. Its sad, but because everywhere is crowded, the courses really have little incentive to drop fees as long as they have a massive supply of people willing to pony up, regardless of course conditions.

[Evan_Smith]

Kalen-  I know in some places the courses have the golfers by the short and curlies, but what I'm saying is that in general, all around the world, if the golfers stood up and complained about this then maybe the course owners will start to get the point.  We're not paying full rate for sub-standard conditions anymore.  Again, there will always be exceptions and I understand that.