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George Pazin

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Bedford Springs get together?
« on: January 09, 2008, 10:41:15 AM »
I have been exchanging messages with several folks about getting together at the newly restored course at Bedford Springs sometime this spring. I'm thinking sometime in May would be terrific for a little group get together. It would be really terrific if we could get Ron Forse or Jim Nagle to attend - perhaps someone who knows them could see if they have any dates available in the spring.

Anyone interested, please post or message me. Don't worry, I will keep your message private, unless you choose to out yourself. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jerry Kluger

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Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2008, 02:53:58 PM »
I would be interested.  I would also like to know what other courses in the area might be interesting to try.

Jason Connor

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Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 05:31:45 PM »
I grew up near there and could be interested in working that into a trip home.  But I'd be a big maybe until closer to the time.

Jerry, perhaps the closest decent course I know of is Jack Nicklaus' course at Rocky Gap, MD.  But I didn't think it was particularly interesting in the few times I've  played.




We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Mike_Cirba

Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 05:58:59 PM »
George,

As we discussed, I'd really enjoy getting together, and maybe I'll bring that guy Morrison, as well.  Let's plan as we get closer.

wsmorrison

Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2008, 06:08:14 PM »
I'll be there.  I talked to Jim Nagle and he's going to see what can be arranged.

Joe Bausch

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Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2008, 06:13:55 PM »
I would be very interested Jerry.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2008, 06:23:15 PM »
I'd recommend not scheduling a GCA get-together at Bedford Springs if Ron Forse or Jim Nagle and hopefully both can't make it. So, I'd suggest those organizing it start with their availabale dates.

From Philly it probably takes about 3 1/2-4 hours down the Pa Turnpike but if you go with me it's only 2 1/2 hours unless I can hook up again with one of those Mercedes out of New York and we could get there in not much over two.

There are times my cars need to "breathe" and this could be one of those times!

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 06:31:03 PM »
I would include Ward Oberholtzer of Land Studies Inc in any Bedford Springs presentations.  Ward was the landscape architect who restored the Bedford Spings creeks before the successful restoration could take place.  I know Ward from the project (Avenel) he is currently involved with and if you are want, Georgo, I could see if Ward is interested (he lives just 20 miles from Bedford, PA).

JC

TEPaul

Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2008, 06:37:59 PM »
Jonathan:

You're completely right about that. That guy is really interesting and that part of the project was probably really unique!

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2008, 07:01:23 PM »
It is 4 hours for me (from Cleveland), but might be a possibility depending on date chosen.  Please keep me informed!
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 07:09:13 PM »
I would include Ward Oberholtzer of Land Studies Inc in any Bedford Springs presentations.  Ward was the landscape architect who restored the Bedford Spings creeks before the successful restoration could take place.  I know Ward from the project (Avenel) he is currently involved with and if you are want, Georgo, I could see if Ward is interested (he lives just 20 miles from Bedford, PA).

JC

Jonathan,

Could you elaborate on what was actually done with the creeks at Bedford Springs?  

Was it related to storm-water management?

astavrides

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Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2008, 07:49:47 PM »
i'm interested.

Joe Bausch

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Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 08:35:20 PM »
I was just playing around w/ the Bedford Springs web site figure showing the current course, a recent Google image, and a 1939 Penn Pilot image of the layout.  They are presented below in that order for your dancing and dining pleasure (I'm trying to decipher how much is different from 1939):



@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 08:48:35 PM »
I would love to make it but my wife is expecting with two girls and she is due this Spring.  Depending on the dates, I'd love to get out there again.

For those debating on going, I would definitely make the trip.

Mike - you read my mind on the work done to the creeks out there.  I think we need to meet Mr. Oberholtzer.

JNagle

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Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2008, 09:30:37 PM »
TEPaul -

Let your cae breathe!!! Is that what you call it.

As for the stream, I am not sure how much Ward was involved, I could be wrong.  The main individuals from Land Studies were Mark Gutshall, Jim Baney and Andrew Donaldson.  

Here is a brief summary of thier work.  In the colonial days a mill dam was placed just below the Springs property for the purpose of timbering the area.  The mill happens to be Naugle's Mill (my German brethren).  Anyway, as the area is timbered and soil is exposed the run-off, silt, deposits into the pond that is created with the creation of the dam.  The silt lifts Shobers Run out of its natural gravel stream bed, perching the stream anywhere from 1-8' above the orginal bed.  Once the mill dam is non-functional they break the dam, the pond waters begin to flow back into stream form and now you have a floodplain that does not match the waterway and a stream that is above its natural bed.  As years went by the Springs come in, the golf course is built and we find a stream that is highly eroded, floods often, and is now in a severe state of decline.  Our first thought is to put a band-aid on the stream (i.e. lay the slopes back, use gabions - all the things many, and I mean many clubs have done wrong over the years).  Well, I grew up in Lititz and have known of Land Studies since my time as a Landscape Architect in Lititz.  Anyway, I told Ron of Mark Gutshall and he remembered Mark from other conversations.  We had the "creek geek" out to Bedford to meet the owner and others.  He dug a couple of test pits adjacent to the stream some eight feet deep.  Anyway, he jumps down into the pits and pulls up pieces of trees, gravel and other debris that have been encapsulated for 200 + years, pretty cool.  That help sell the project.  Next, we had to get the budget increased by close to 3/4 of a mil.  Done!  Once the owner knew flooding and CLOSURE of the course could be an issue, it was an easy sell.  The stream bed wsa modified, over 1 mile in length.  Shobers Run and its tributaries impact 12 holes at Bedford, so it definately needed to be addressed.  The final outcome is a beautiful flowing stream with pools, riffle areas, small falls, wetlands....  Just a tremendous addition.  

I will get some pictures posted in coming days.

Land Studies has a unique approach to this process on golf courses, they let the golf course dictate design.  Mark is doing all that he can to understand what must happen on an existing course and retrofit their design's into the course.  He has worked or is working on seven different cleint's of ours.  I simply would not look to anyone else.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Mike_Cirba

Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 09:46:57 PM »
TEPaul -

Let your cae breathe!!! Is that what you call it.

As for the stream, I am not sure how much Ward was involved, I could be wrong.  The main individuals from Land Studies were Mark Gutshall, Jim Baney and Andrew Donaldson.  

Here is a brief summary of thier work.  In the colonial days a mill dam was placed just below the Springs property for the purpose of timbering the area.  The mill happens to be Naugle's Mill (my German brethren).  Anyway, as the area is timbered and soil is exposed the run-off, silt, deposits into the pond that is created with the creation of the dam.  The silt lifts Shobers Run out of its natural gravel stream bed, perching the stream anywhere from 1-8' above the orginal bed.  Once the mill dam is non-functional they break the dam, the pond waters begin to flow back into stream form and now you have a floodplain that does not match the waterway and a stream that is above its natural bed.  As years went by the Springs come in, the golf course is built and we find a stream that is highly eroded, floods often, and is now in a severe state of decline.  Our first thought is to put a band-aid on the stream (i.e. lay the slopes back, use gabions - all the things many, and I mean many clubs have done wrong over the years).  Well, I grew up in Lititz and have known of Land Studies since my time as a Landscape Architect in Lititz.  Anyway, I told Ron of Mark Gutshall and he remembered Mark from other conversations.  We had the "creek geek" out to Bedford to meet the owner and others.  He dug a couple of test pits adjacent to the stream some eight feet deep.  Anyway, he jumps down into the pits and pulls up pieces of trees, gravel and other debris that have been encapsulated for 200 + years, pretty cool.  That help sell the project.  Next, we had to get the budget increased by close to 3/4 of a mil.  Done!  Once the owner knew flooding and CLOSURE of the course could be an issue, it was an easy sell.  The stream bed wsa modified, over 1 mile in length.  Shobers Run and its tributaries impact 12 holes at Bedford, so it definately needed to be addressed.  The final outcome is a beautiful flowing stream with pools, riffle areas, small falls, wetlands....  Just a tremendous addition.  

I will get some pictures posted in coming days.

Land Studies has a unique approach to this process on golf courses, they let the golf course dictate design.  Mark is doing all that he can to understand what must happen on an existing course and retrofit their design's into the course.  He has worked or is working on seven different cleint's of ours.  I simply would not look to anyone else.

Jim,

If you had written poetry it could not have been better music to my ears.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Mike

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2008, 10:29:46 PM »
I have heard only great reports about Bedford Springs and would love to come along.

Tom - if you travel with Wayne be careful. I was driving on the PA turnpike to meet him and I passed a car parked on the side that looked suspiciously like his. A state trooper's car was parked just behind it - the trooper was probably just providing directions.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2008, 11:13:14 PM »
I will be unavailable from May 23 to June 1 as I will be in Italy without golf clubs. :(
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2008, 07:35:46 AM »
Good description of the work done at Bedford Springs Jim.  I thought Ward Oberholtzer was more involved in the project.  I know for a fact that Ward is Land Study's lead at Avenel.

The efforts at Avenel are even more expansive (as is LS's budget).  The Rock Run creek system that networks Avenel was once mined for gold.  At the turn of the 20th century there were five active gold mines on what is now the Avenel property.  Mill dams were also present along Rock Run creating similar damage to the floodplain as Jim describes happened at BS.  Oberholtzer has removed and rebuilt the entire Rock Run system.  GCAs Wenzloff and Hardy are currently rebuilding all 18 holes.  There is the expectation that Avenel will have a new healthy creek system similar BS's Shober Run.

JC

michael_j_fay

Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2008, 08:32:19 AM »
I was at Bedford Springs for the opening of the golf course last year. I played with Jim Nagle and truly enjoyed the course.

The remediation of the stream (a project overdue by 300 years) was crucial to the outcome of the work of Forse design but the work that was done by Ron and Jim is fabulous. The Donald Ross Society and the Tillinghast Association are going to hold a joint meeting at Bedford in September.

I recommend that you seek the appearance of both Forse design and Ward Oberholtzer at any event.

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2008, 08:46:26 AM »
Michael - I think I'm an original DRS member and am somewaht embarrassed to say I've never attended any DRS events.  I will attend the Sept event at Bedford.  If I can be of any help in the arrangements please contact me.  JC

George Pazin

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Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2008, 09:54:59 AM »
Thanks for all the replies.

I guess the news about the DRS/Tillinghast Society meeting begs the question of whether folks would forego a golfclubatlas get together in favor of that.

Would people be interested in attending both? Would people prefer a smaller get together of golfclubatlas members?

Let me know and I'll start researching the logistics.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2008, 09:56:37 AM »
George,

I think having the GCA event first might actually help to publicize and create additional excitement/attendance for the latter Ross/Tilly joint meeting.

wsmorrison

Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2008, 10:27:05 AM »
George,

Unless events such as the DRS/TS gathering are open to us non-society heathens, I'm all for getting together as an informal or formal GCA gathering.

George Pazin

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Re:Bedford Springs get together?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2008, 10:50:24 AM »
I had one person suggest June as a better time. Do others have preferences between May and June?

Some important dates:

May 11 - Mother's Day
June 15 - Father's Day
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04