Schmidt-Curley Designs

[Tim Book]

After a fews years of nightly reading GCA I decided to take the plunge and hopefully add to the conversation.  I am neither a budding architect nor scratch golfer, but I can think of few things in life I enjoy more than getting out on the road and experiencing a new course.

I am surprised to see little discussion of Schmidt-Curley designs.  Maybe because a large portion of their work is either oversees or limited to the southwest most golfers haven't been exposed to their work?  I have always enjoyed Oak Quarry, Landmark G.C. (or whatever they call it these days), and Shadow Ridge.  I also was able to get in a few rounds at Twin Creeks CC. in Austin that beat me up ,but I thoroughly enjoyed it.

What would the general response of the 'tree house' be to their work?    

[Craig Sweet]

I have played one....Canyon River. Not bad...number 9 new public course under $75 by GD...

I think its in the top 4 or 5 in Montana...

[Ryan Farrow]

They have one of the best in Arizona, it used to be called Southern Dunes but is now Royal Dunes (private).

A very difficult golf course and a lot of fun. I too don't understand the lack of discussion as they consistently produce quality golf courses.  
http://www.royaldunesgc.com/


They were also responsible for the Faldo course at the Wildfire at Marriott in Scottsdale another good golf course. Another reason for the lack of discussion may be that a lot of their courses are under professional golfers names.

[Matt_Cohn]

What sort of non-desert (or desert-like) work have they done?

I think they did Crosby National in San Diego but even that is a semi-desert kind of course - islands of fairway between mostly unplayable native areas.

[Paul Saathoff]

They did do the renovation work at the Ross Course in French Lick, which turned out great, as well as the 9 hole Bendelow course there.  I never got to see that one finished, but while working on it, I thought it would turn into a fun little 9 holer, although it's valley location could see it under water quite a bit.  They were also the #2 ranked firm over here in asia according to Golf Digest Asia, whatever that is worth.  

[cary lichtenstein]

I have played Oak Quarry twice and enjoyed it very much each time. Also played Wildfire in California and thought that was worth playing.

Can anyone list their best work?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I will be be playing Copper Canyon in Buckeye, AZ next month and will report on my experience.

www.coppercanyongolfclub.com

[Greg Holland]

I walked the Faldo Wildfire course in Phoenix (it was closed for overseeding).  It looked interesting -- with sandbelt type bunkering, and some good short holes.  It appeared to provide a nice contrast to the Palmer course there.

I would like to hear more about them as well.

[Tom Yost]

Another Arizona course is Canoa Ranch in Green Valley (south of Tucson).

http://www.canoaranchgolfclub.com

Canoa Ranch, along with Copper Canyon and Wildfire/Faldo are certainly on my "to play" list.

I've noticed that Royal Dunes seems to frequently host some amateur and charity tournaments, so I'm watching for my opportunity to get out there.  


Tom

[John Kavanaugh]

One of them did the French Lick Ross course restoration along with Michael Fay.  Clearly their best work.

[David Stamm]

S & C have done quite a bit of work around So Cal. Matt mentioned one already, The Crosby, although it's not one of my favs. I thought the greens were a little over the top in relation to the rest of the course, IMHO.  

They did Oak Valley in Beaumont which I think is a solid course. Also, Goose Creek in Mira Loma is very highly thought of by alot of locals. Overall, I like their designs for the most part.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I have played several of their courses.. Desert Ridge, Oak Quarry,  Sienna and Goose Creek.  All of which I thought were very good, all had some some excellent holes, but all suffered from a letdown on the 18th hole. Not horrible, but just not as good as the rest of the course.

I vaguely remember them having a project in the state of Washington, but I haven't heard anything lately.

Very busy guys, don't seem to get much love from the raters though.

[Scott_Burroughs]

The first 1.5 days of King's Putter V in June, 2006 was played
on two S/C designs in/near La Quinta, CA, Palms and
Plantation.  Both were received generally pretty well,
considering the scorching 110 degree heat.

Pics and discussion of Plantation can be found here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=24752

Oak Quarry has been discussed/shown pictures several times.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=17538

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=23654

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=26482

[Jason Topp]

I'm a big fan of their work based on:

Terra Lago
The Palms
The Plantation
Canoa Ranch

Did they do San Juan Oaks as well?

I particularly like their bunkers and the playability of the courses.  Canoa Ranch is on poor land but still manages to be a fun challenge.

[David Stamm]

I'm a big fan of their work based on:

Terra Lago
The Palms
The Plantation
Canoa Ranch

Did they do San Juan Oaks as well?

I particularly like their bunkers and the playability of the courses.  Canoa Ranch is on poor land but still manages to be a fun challenge.

Jason,

   Gene Bates did SJO "with" Fred Couples.

[Bryan Izatt]

In my recent SoCal tour I played four S/C designs - Oak Quarry, Oak Valley and the two courses at the SCPGA.  I thought they were all good courses.  Matt, Oak Valley and the two courses at SCPGA are examples of non-desert courses.

David, I think Oak Valley is a Curley design (with no Schmidt).  

The comments above seem to indicate a general sort of weak appreciation of their work.  I'd be interested to hear what keeps these courses from being more highly regarded.  What characteristics of greatness are missing from these courses?

[Jason Topp]

The comments above seem to indicate a general sort of weak appreciation of their work.  I'd be interested to hear what keeps these courses from being more highly regarded.  What characteristics of greatness are missing from these courses?

The only thing I can think of is great land.  

They have creative holes.  They have terrific bunkers that vary from site to site.  They are willing to break convention (e.g. 6 par 3's at Canoa Ranch and par 34-36 with the back nine around 3900 yards at the Palms).  They seem to understand the importance of variety and fun in a golf course.

None of the courses I have played have been on terrific sites and they did not appear to do a ton of earthmoving.  I also do not remember having a real positive or negative reaction to the greens.

[David Stamm]

David, I think Oak Valley is a Curley design (with no Schmidt).  

 

FWIW,

http://www.golflink.com/golf-courses/course.asp?course=1420756

[rjsimper]

Palms - Decent
Plantation - Slightly better
Terra Lago North - Quite good
Terra Lago South - A few good holes but a lot of blah
Oak Quarry - Enhanced by the site
Goose Creek - Great fun, perhaps a bit too easy, atrocious 18th hole

Jason, I thought the land at Terra Lago/Landmark with the hills...the North side of the property, was pretty good land and I think they did a good job with it.  

When they held the skins game there, I believe they took the two better nines from the North and South course to make the Skins course - incidentally, both nines chosen were the northern/western nines if I recall.

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

I was going by the Schmidt-Curley website.  

http://www.schmidt-curley.com/completed_projects/index.asp

At the bottom it mentions work done by Curley for Landmark:  "Brian Curley served as a Land Planner, Project Coordinator and President of the Golf Design Division during his 12 year career with Landmark Golf Company. Projects with Landmark Golf Company include: Terra Lago Golf Club, Oak Valley Golf Club, Landmark at Hemet Golf Club, and more."  I made the assumption that since they didn't list Schmidt on these projects that he probably wasn't involved.

Jason,

The sites for the four I mentioned are pretty good sites (lacking an ocean, of course) with lots of vertical elevation changes.  Clearly there was a lot of earth and mountain moving at Oak Quarry.  I too liked their bunkering work and their routings.  They didn't fall into the trap of all downhill par 3's for instance.  Their greens generally are not over-the-top in your face attention grabbing, but I thought were generally interesting and challenging.  I guess the gap between good, very good and great is pretty fine.  Maybe if more of their courses were high-end exclusive private courses that hosted tour (or major) events they might be more highly thought of.

I've also played the Terra Lago courses and the land particularly for the south course was less interesting.  Any of the other four were better courses in my opinion.

[Matt_Ward]

Schmidt-Curley generally do solid work -- one of their best has not been mentioned by the group --

Shadow Ridge w Nick Faldo in Palm Desert, CA. Well done layout with some of the best bunkering -- strategic and appearance -- in the entire Coachella Valley area IMHO.

For comparison purposes I see Shadow Ridge a few steps beyond Oak Quarry and the two at SCPGA.

The layout in Maricopa, AZ -- now Royal Dunes is also quite fun to play. I wonder if the men's only designation is still in play when going there.

[Tim Book]

Matt - I would agree that a majority of their courses are in desert or semi-desert locations and overtime may begin to blend together.  The only departure from the desert theme I played of theirs was Twin Creeks CC near Austin.  It also was with Fred Couples.  It plays in and out of a series of creek beds and along some nice ridge lines.  Good track and different from the desert layouts of So. Cal.  

I specifically didn't mention the Crosby ,here in San Diego, because it is one of their designs I didn't like.  I have only played it once, but the routing was terrible.  Another So. Cal. course will enough real estate for 17 holes.

I would also agree that the bunkering at Shadow Ridge is some of the best in the Coachella Valley.  

[Brian_Ewen]

Curley-Schmidt certainly seem to be the popular design company in Thailand / SE Asia at the moment .

Their renovation of Siam CC has really went down well , especially after the LPGA was there in October.

And their Amata Spring course has also been well recieved .

[Allan Long]

I was always under the impression that The Palms was just Curley solo with Fred Couples consulting. I beleive the course website also lists it that way. Regardless, the majority of their courses that I have played have been in the desert, and I think the variety of their holes is a strong point. Of their non-desert offerings, I really liked Oak Quarry as it has some interesting holes.