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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« on: January 08, 2008, 12:05:52 AM »
With the discussion of the Doak courses that aren't talked
about as much, I figured I'd try to post the pics I took of
Riverfront from my one time around in late '05.  I e-mailed
Doak after playing it saying that the course was almost
unrecognizable compared to Ran's pics in his
course profile before the homes arrived in droves.  They are a
definite distraction for sure, but with the terrific set of greens
there, they almost make you forget the homes.  Almost.

The developer covered the propery in homes, but at least
they let him build those wild greens....something rare on an
affordable public course.

At bottom, I'll post the aerial (formerly 'Of The Day #210')
 at the end, one to see the routing, and two, to see the lack of housing then!

#1, par 4, 421 yards:


Approach from better position:


From not-so-good position:


The first of many great greens:


#2, par 3, 204 yards, may not look like much off the tee, but....


....the green is where the fun starts:


#3, par 4 (though on card as 5 by management, meant as 4), 484 yards:


long approach to a fallaway green (and as a side note, the
home of Michael Vick's mom ::) is just to the right of the bushes at right):


green falling away to the left:


#4, par 3, 175 yards:


from behind the green, looking back at the tee (by the back tees on #5):


turning to the right, #5, par 4, 353 yards:


approach:


#6, par 4, 410 yards:


approach:


#7, par 4, 333 yards:


approach:


another wild green:


#8, par 5, 534 yards:


approach to green that falls away at back:


from a little closer (notice can't see bottom of flagstick):


#9, par 4, 396 yards, dogleg right:


approach to fun green:


#10, par 4, 370 yards, notice fairway bunker...:


...of which my playing partner zeroed in on:


The pretty par 3, 11th, 148 yards:


#12, par 4, 460 yards, partly split fairway:


approach from edge of upper portion:


grass bunker:


#13, par 3, 183 yards:


#14, par 5, 552 yards:


2nd shot, need to steer clear of center bunker:


approach to wild green:


#15, Cape par 4, 394 yards:


approach:


#16, par 4, 444 yards:


approach:


#17, par 4, 374 yards:


approach:


#18, par 5, 500 yards:


2nd shot over wetland to here:


fun green, with some Biarritz-ness to it:



The rather large aerial (front nine at bottom):


Here the course's web site, which is currently under construction:

http://www.riverfrontgolf.com/

Congrats, JB, on another National Championship!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 10:50:50 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 12:45:07 AM »
Nothing over the top on the visual side but that's fine with me.

Looks like a fun place to play golf

Ryan Farrow

Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2008, 01:50:42 AM »
Philippe, you really think so?  Aside from the pictures with the obtrusive housing, some of those holes were gorgeous. Looks like there is some pretty diverse plant life growing in those wetlands/ponds? that really add to the beauty of the golf course.

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2008, 01:53:57 AM »
Ryan,

I agree with Philippe.

While the greens look pretty good, I cant say the golf course looks all that great.

But you know what they say, dont judge a course by the pictures..

The coolest course I've ever seen in photographs, is coincidentally also one of Mr. Doaks, that being Cape Kidnappers.  
Now THAT looks like a gorgeous golf course.
 :)

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2008, 08:34:06 AM »

The houses that are around the course are nice homes to look at. There is only one hole with homes on both sides and it has a great green. Houses and development are a neccessary evil to get good golf courses built. Is Riverfront good? Yes. Is is one of the best in the area? Yes. Is it one of the top courses in the state of Virginia? No.

The course has the feel of a private country club that winds its way through a set of nice homes. The 7th hole has the worst background of the course but it is a fun, short par 4.

I feel lucky that I get to play a Doak course with great greens.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2008, 08:46:48 AM »
I don't see any problem with the course that tattering those bunker edges and then growing long, fuzzy fescue out of the faces wouldn't solve!    ::) ;)

Didn't these guys get the memo??  ;D
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 08:48:20 AM by MPCirba »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2008, 04:20:04 PM »
If you didn't know, who would you say did the work?
To me it looks like an RTJII project from the ground.
From the aerial not so.
The shots of the greens look like they'd keep the course fresh.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2008, 04:23:28 PM »
If you didn't know, who would you say did the work?
To me it looks like an RTJII project from the ground.
From the aerial not so.
The shots of the greens look like they'd keep the course fresh.


To me it is obvious because I have seen it before.  It looks like a Doak course where he wished he was somewhere else.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2008, 04:37:41 PM »
Hurts to say it, but from the pics this course looks like it comes straight out of Myrtle beach...except the greens
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 04:38:33 PM by matt kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Carl Rogers

Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2008, 08:16:14 PM »
The pictures are good but only go so far.  Today, the bunker edges are sharply defined ... not a big deal for me.  

This course is a lot more than the greens and the houses. At very many levels, Riverfront is a very subtle course, a very restrained and well orchestrated course. The approach shots from an angular and elevational perspective are masterful.  It is about the reaction to and creation of context.

If more of you ever got a to play it a few times, I think that the 3rd hole and the 10th hole would deserve their own threads on this and other sites with 100 comments.

John Moore II

Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 02:05:26 PM »
MPC--I think your comment about the tattered edges and fescue is a bit off. I believe that doing that would make the bunkers look as much a fabrication as they are currently, if not stand out more.

--I suppose, though, that I am in the minority on this site in that I really do not hold negative opinions about any architect, I would just as soon play a Doak or a Fazio; a Strantz or a Nicklaus. As long as they are all quality that is.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 02:05:55 PM by Johnny M »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2008, 02:28:55 PM »
JohnnyM,

My remark about the course needing fuzzy bunkers was a bit tongue-in-cheek, as I believe that any number of us often give higher marks to courses that have raw, rugged, ripped looking bunkers which sometimes are distracting and cause us to not look much beyond that initial impression.

 

John Moore II

Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 02:37:14 PM »
MPC--my apologies, I thought you were being serious about the bunkers...I feel those types look great where they look natural. If they are artifical, the scruffy bunkers look far worse, to me anyway.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 08:16:06 PM »
Thanks for the pictures.  The golf course has recently changed hands (I think it went through) so I may go back this year to make some suggestions.

There was no masking a bunch of homes built in open soybean fields.  The only thing we could have done was to build some more holes together as a core, and give up the marsh frontage on either 4-5-8 or on 13-14-15.

The major disappointments for me were the two lakes which were dug on #6 and on #11-12 -- the latter of which was a 50-foot-deep quarry for the interstate.  The engineer for the project mis-guessed the eventual lake level by about four feet, so the banks from the fairway down to the water look horrible as a result.

The best thing about it is that it's still an under $50 golf course, I think.  Comparing it to Cape Kidnappers is kind of pointless.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2008, 08:51:08 PM »
Houses are part of the equation....if the course is good and they are not intruding into play, why are they a bother?

Do the headquarters of the R&A really screw up your enjoyment of the Old Course when you play into 18 green?

Sometimes I think we carry this walk in the park mantra a bit too far.

I enjoyed the photos.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Philippe Binette

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Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 09:13:21 PM »
What I meant by nothing over the top was:

The course is not a challenge of aligning the 120 sexiest bunker in the world... or building some waterfall lake whatever.


It looks like a nice simple (in the looks) course with plenty of width, some nice details on the bunkering here and there and a good set of greens.

More course should be like that instead of trying to build 18 'signature holes' full of mounds, lakes, bunkers dramatic tee shot followed by dramatic tee shots.


Carl Rogers

Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2008, 08:49:44 PM »
Tom,
11th hole, half the bunker to the far left up the slope has now been grassed in ... to hard to maintain??  You have to buy a discount card to play $50.00 golf.  I am not sure what the regular price is ... maybe $65.00  and really worth it.

For the rest of you,
I nominate this course to become your most favorite course that no one has heard of or played.

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2008, 12:29:05 PM »
There was no masking a bunch of homes built in open soybean fields.  The only thing we could have done was to build some more holes together as a core, and give up the marsh frontage on either 4-5-8 or on 13-14-15.

Having played Riverfront a couple of times, I'm very glad you didn't sacrifice 13-14-15.  I honestly think the back 9 is the best part of the whole course and 17 is a little devil hole if the player isn't careful.  Unfortunately, the developers decided to build a bunch of condos around 16-17 and so it feels now as though one is teeing off from someone's back porch.

Regardless, it's a fun course that I try to get over and play once a year for a change of pace.

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2008, 11:12:49 AM »
Any updates on Riverfront?

Tom D - did you ever make it back to make some suggestions?

Scott W - have you been playing out there much?

Chris_Clouser

Re: Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2008, 11:38:43 AM »
Tom,

Any thoughts on this course as a comparison to Quail Crossing?  I think that was what John Kavanaugh was referring to in his comments about seeing it before.

Carl Rogers

Re: Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2008, 12:22:10 PM »
The comparison to the soon to be ill-fated Beechtree may be relevant also.  I want to get up there this fall.

I have got some additional pics of Riverfront that will complement these on this thread.  They illustrate a point that Tom made about the how the approach shots were designed to be different as you move across the fairway at any given yardage.  Will someone tell me how to upload them?

o/t maybe
For those of you that wonder about the impact of this web site .... Scott Weersing and I have met through this site, played a couple of rounds at Riverfront and are going up to Royal New Kent the weekend after next.  A couple of weeks ago, he asked me to play in an event at Greenbrier and I was closest to the pin  4 on a par 3 whose prize is 4 rounds at Kingsmill.  CJ what are you up to?

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2008, 06:47:48 PM »
Tom and I played Riverfront together soon after it opened.  I played golf while he mostly took pictures.  There were far less houses on the course then there are now.  RF was/is(?) a sneaky good golf course. 

Tom warned me that I probably wouldn't think much of the course when all the housing was in and from Scott's pictures I'm inclined to agree.   Although Tom's statement has surely been superseded by his recent designs he did tell me then that Riverfront represented some of his best green complexes.

JC
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 06:17:35 AM by Jonathan »

Rick Sides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2008, 09:52:36 AM »
It looks like you are playing golf in someone's backyard.  I like the course, but the houses are way too intrusive!

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2008, 01:05:25 PM »
It looks like you are playing golf in someone's backyard.  I like the course, but the houses are way too intrusive!

The houses ARE way too intrusive, but quite frankly, it really doesn't detract from the course or the playing experience at all.  This is due in large part to the great variety of holes on the course - a variety which I think might be the best of any one single course on the southside.  And again, unfortunately the southside (at least close to the water) has turned into an area reminiscent of northern VA where you almost have to accept the houses as part of the course if you want to have the course.  It's an unfortunate side effect of population growth, but then again, maybe it'll make you concentrate a bit more on the course in an attempt to ignore the houses.   :)

o/t maybe
For those of you that wonder about the impact of this web site .... Scott Weersing and I have met through this site, played a couple of rounds at Riverfront and are going up to Royal New Kent the weekend after next.  A couple of weeks ago, he asked me to play in an event at Greenbrier and I was closest to the pin  4 on a par 3 whose prize is 4 rounds at Kingsmill.  CJ what are you up to?

Carl's right, I am very excited about the fact that we're forming a nice little southeastern VA contingent on here.   :)

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photos of Riverfront, VA (A 'Doak Less Discussed')
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2008, 08:36:27 AM »
Just played Riverfront yesterday (Saturday) for $47.  Talk about a steal!

I don't think what's been said here is too far off - excellent set of greens, several standouts really.  The third hole is an excellent half-par.

The houses...well...I can't believe some people would live in some of those spots, but for the most part they aren't really impacting play.  I thought the OB on 15 was kind of eeeeeesh.  Much of it is more mental than anything else, and some of the homes are really nice (like the ones on 14)

What I was wondering is did the developer (or architect) really want the back tee box on the 13th hole where it is?  That's maybe the only tee box I've ever seen that would have an actual street address...not for closeness, but because it's quite obviously a residential lot (or at least easily could be).

Granted, I think that location for the tee box makes for an excellent golf hole, but it's just hard to believe that they'd volunteer a valuable lot as a location for a tee box that's not 100% necessary.

The homes do add to the visual intimidation in certain cases, though.  That's for dang sure.  Staring at the 6th fairway, for example, it's tough to commit to a shot with vegetation left and OB/homes right and a bunker pinching at 250.  I actually laid back with a 3i and that's probably the play I'd make every time.

One complaint I had is that in a couple cases (the 4th hole being the most obvious) the forward tees were sacrificed in order to make a better hole for the championship tees.  This doesn't affect me, but playing with my fiancee, we definitely noticed on that one.

On the whole, though....at the price they ask for that course, it's a great deal.  Obviously, I can complain about walkability in terms of green-tee walks but I am sure that others are well aware of that.