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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2008, 10:16:43 AM »
Why would you feel those of us who gave A's are being dishonest?

It may not be what you prefer to hear, but I spoke my feelings honestly.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2008, 10:19:49 AM »
JK:

I never figured you for one of those pining away for a past that never was.  Interesting.

I'd say this forum is more honest than it ever has been.

TH

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2008, 10:23:43 AM »

Tom,

          Exactly!!  

TEPaul

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2008, 10:31:45 AM »
Ran:

Did you see what Jim Nugent said----that you use the contributions to hit the road, play more courses and write more great profiles on them?

I think that's a great idea and I'll personally contribute some dough-rey-mee to that effort.

Well, on second thought I'll only contribute if you reimburse me for that room at Sand Hills we had to share after you left the door open and every fly or mosquito in Nebraska decided to come in there and hang out with us. That was really rude of you Ran!

John Kavanaugh

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2008, 11:05:22 AM »
Friendships breed dishonesty.

TEPaul

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2008, 11:10:52 AM »
Hey, JohnK, you are definitely one of the biggest grumps I've ever seen and it seems like you're getting exponentially worse on this particular thread!

What the hell's going on with you? Did one of your guys run the damn paving machine off the road into the bushes or something?

;)

John Kavanaugh

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2008, 11:21:09 AM »
Hey, JohnK, you are definitely one of the biggest grumps I've ever seen and it seems like you're getting exponentially worse on this particular thread!

What the hell's going on with you? Did one of your guys run the damn paving machine off the road into the bushes or something?

;)

I don't have a problem with being happy, It's just when I see pictures of an obvious crap course posted and can't even criticize it myself, out of respect for the architect, my stomach turns.

I am afraid that we are turning into just another golf magazine where the authors pull punches to not lose future ad revenue.  If I am even pulling punches, who isn't?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2008, 11:26:35 AM »
JK:

That is a tough one.  The participation of the architects themselves here does make that a difficult issue.  My point remains that you pine away for a past that never was, however.  It's ALWAYS been the case here.  

So my grades remain the same, honestly given.

TH

John Kavanaugh

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2008, 11:31:58 AM »
Huck,

Just compare the recent slam of Engh to the past slams of Fazio.  Do you think the Tommy would have gotten in trouble 5 years ago.  I don't.  I believe that Tommy was giving honest opinions in each case, but today it didn't fly.

We now post in a time where if don't have something nice to say you are better off saying nothing at all.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2008, 11:38:58 AM »
JK:

Unfair example:  Fazio didn't post here, and Tommy WAS the moderator.  

I get what you're saying; I just don't agree with it.  There has always been some of this.  The only difference now is we have more architects participating.  I'd say that's a good thing, but then again I don't care as much about "honest critique" as you do.

TH

John Kavanaugh

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2008, 11:44:16 AM »

 I'd say that's a good thing, but then again I don't care as much about "honest critique" as you do.


I agree that I am strictly in the minority when it comes to honest opinions.  I have never been in the "Why make a point when you can make a friend camp".

Tom Huckaby

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2008, 11:48:23 AM »
Which of course I've always found as strange as you find my take.  We are most definitely in opposite camps.

But that's not the issue here anyway, at least not my dog in this fight - which remains that it remains odd to me when people pine for a past that never was.  Revisionist history has always been strange to me.

TH

henrye

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2008, 11:48:53 AM »
I think the site remains excellent.  I agree it would improve with better "tagging" and sorting so that past topics were either categorized or more easily searchable.  Also, it would be interesting to see cumulative stats on the posters/members in terms of age group, home country/state, index, occupation (architect/super/pro/non-golf industry/etc.).  I realize this would require individuals to update their profile and there might be a risk of collecting too much information and dealing with privacy issues, but the stats would be interesting.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2008, 11:50:26 AM »
Huck,

Just compare the recent slam of Engh to the past slams of Fazio.  Do you think the Tommy would have gotten in trouble 5 years ago.  I don't.  I believe that Tommy was giving honest opinions in each case, but today it didn't fly.

We now post in a time where if don't have something nice to say you are better off saying nothing at all.  

I've said this recently.  If you don't like something, feel free to criticize, but explain yourself.  Too often, I see shallow negative remarks.  "This sucks" or "So and so is terrible" or "Architect F has ruined this course".  Explain why you don't like a certain feature or architect, and expect to defend your position.

Ran, I give the site an A- or B+.  The greatest contribution of 2007 were the many unsolicited course profiles and picture essays, plus a spirited series of conversations between the group's "theorists" this fall.  My primary suggestion would be for participants to be a bit more selective when making posts.  Sometimes I feel like I have to fllter through a fair amount of meaningless posts to get at the good stuff.

It gets harder to stay interesting, the deeper we go.  There is value in returning to old subjects, but there is still lots of uncharted territory.  We still don't discuss Tom Fazio's work much.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2008, 11:52:54 AM »
Ran, I give you an A.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2008, 12:12:17 PM »
John Kirk,

By requesting people to be articulate about why something sucks is too difficult for the average poster.  I think we lose a measure of insight by hold people to such high standards.  I for one would like to see on an equal basis require the guys who love evrything be as articulate.  It is far too easy to bash the jerk and give the prince a pass when neither opinion is more valuable than the other.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2008, 12:13:53 PM »
I agree with that, John.


Tom Huckaby

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2008, 12:15:27 PM »
Ah, but JakaB, isn't the world a better place when jerks are bashed and good guys praised?  I tend to see far too little of that.  Seems to me the squeeky wheels get the grease.

In a perfect GCA world, we all articulate our opinions in painstaking detail, leaving no stone unturned for the reader. I'd say that happens here a hell of a lot more than any other place....

But of course the world isn't perfect, and we tend to only have so much time.

TH

David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2008, 12:43:05 PM »
Ran--

Now that I've made a contribution for this year, I can grade with clear conscience: A+ for the site, B- for the contributors.

I'm generally a hard grader, but the site will get an A+ from me as long as it exists in more or less its present form. There's nothing else like it, and the concept is superior.

I'm sure you can tweak or even replace the current software, which is a little creaky. But it's also part of the charm, and I recognize that YaBB helped you out at the creation.

You can't make the site any better than its participants. Even if you screen them perfectly with 1500 people there's going to be the usual human variation of modest/immodest, competent/incompetent, charming/insufferable, gentlemanly and perfect asshole. Your general approach seems to be to let the site police itself except at the extreme margins, and this works. So no matter what you do, the participants as a group are unlikely to rise above B/B-.

Even the best posters are sometime excessively self-referential. The course reviews and other formal articles on the site are excellent, and the site is diminished by the fact that this material is so rarely consulted and commented upon by most posters. The site would improve if posters, even the ones genuinely expert in the field, would introduce more and better historical information, not just their own opinions.

As an utter nonprofessional in the field, it's a treat to be able to participate in my limited way. As the lady in the bar would say, I don't come here that often (and I go home alone), but when I come I'm often entertained, sometimes appalled and more often than not I learn something new and interesting about the game I love.

Thanks for keeping up the site.

David Lott

David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2008, 01:03:38 PM »
Friendships breed dishonesty.

So, John, do you have no friends because you are honest, or are you honest because you have no friends?
David Lott

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2008, 01:27:49 PM »
The Courses by Country list updates have been excellent in the last year, and I spend a lot of time there. Each Feature Interview is different - some more edifying than others, but I enjoy the scope of your subjects. The "new blood" in the Discussion Group has been positive - I wish I had as much to contribute as they do. Speaking of contributions, I've enjoyed this site at no cost for too long. My contribution is forthcoming. I am very thankful to be allowed in this forum, and I continue to appreciate this site as whole. If any negative commentary is needed, I'd say that there hasn't been a good Aronomink thread for a long time.

I've only had a chance to meet a small number of DG members in person, but have otherwise made a few cyberfriends in the group. Something I didn't necessarily expect to happen, but a clear bonus. Something tells me that the chances of me making the South African get-together are slim. Oregon, maybe? Look forward to info on these, and if I can't attend, I can at least enjoy the inevitable write-ups.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2008, 01:52:42 PM »
Ran,

Forgive me if this was mentioned above, but is there a way to have a tab listing info about the posters? (Something like the "Who are you guys, anyway" thread.)

We should have to keystroke the information ourselves (far too much work for you or Ben) but as a newer member still trying to get to know guys, it would be nice to be able to refer to such a tab. It would be an easy way to know who is an architect, who is a pro, superintendent, or just a player with an interest in architecture, etc. We could list our home course, handicap, etc.

I think the other option is to simply modify the member profile section to include this information.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2008, 02:05:24 PM »
Just to add to the comments by John Kirk, which I agree with 100%.

It is possible to provide good criticsm/feedback on a course and not resort to cheap shots at the architect or otherwise.  When people stick to this format and explain why they have thier position, I don't think anyone takes much if any offense to that.

But when people make it personal, or propagate rumors of a he said/she said nature, or whine that they don't like something, this is when it crosses the line.  And if you absolutly feel you need to address something, by all means use your IM/email function without airing all to the group.

Kalen


John Kavanaugh

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2008, 03:00:50 PM »


It is possible to provide good criticsm/feedback on a course and not resort to cheap shots at the architect or otherwise.  When people stick to this format and explain why they have thier position, I don't think anyone takes much if any offense to that.


Kalen,

I am curious if you find this to be an acceptable critique.  It is from a professional critic.

"I've played four or five Thomson courses. All of them leave me with the same impression.

He'll be remembered for being a great golfer and a fine writer."

TEPaul

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2008, 03:11:37 PM »
"I don't have a problem with being happy.......,"


JohnnyboyK:

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say you don't have a problem with being unhappy---ie grumpy all the time?   :(