Another comment on collaboration

[Ted Kramer]

From John Steinbeck's, East of Eden . . .

"Our species is the only creative species, and it has only one creative instrument, the individual mind and spirit of a man. Nothing was ever created by two men. There are no good collaborations, whether in music, in art, in poetry, in mathematics, in philosophy. Once the miracle of creation has taken place, the group can build and extend it, but the group never invents anything. The preciousness lies in the lonely mind of a man."

I thought that was worth sharing.

-Ted

[Kirk Gill]

This man was an author, an intrinsically solitary pursuit. Other creative endeavors are inherently collaborative. I've played in bands where four "lonely minds" would spontaneously create new music, and I found it to be entirely worthwhile.

[John Kavanaugh]

Has anyone else noticed that the USGA has ignored the collaboration of golf writers as architects?

[TEPaul]

Apparently John Steinbeck neither knew or understood people like Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw.

I saw them in action in a collaborative mode one time and it was one of the most Gol-darned dang-it things I've ever seen in my life.

I was literally inches behind them as they were working out the concept on a hole at Friars Head and I swear to God it seemed like they were talking but you couldn't hear anything. I even moved around in front of them and their lips seemed to be moving but there was no sound. I think it was sort of like a right brain/left brain kind of thing between them----they were definitely into some kind of "One Mind" collaborative mode.

And then one time Bill Coore said he had to work some architectural problem out with Ben who was in Texas at the time. So Bill got out his cellphone and dialed Ben. I watched Bill for about ten minutes on that cellphone and he never said a word. I guess it was just a series of brain-waves going back and forth between the two of them.

[TEPaul]

I've also observed Paul Cowley out in the field with no one else around him carrying on a conversation quite loudly with someone who clearly wasn't there. He certainly wasn't talking to me and I really didn't want to say anything about it and I certainly didn't want to ask him who he was speaking with but I did notice when he was done it seemed like he'd resolved whatever architectural problem he had.

[Ted Kramer]

Interesting comments.
Thanks for sharing.

-Ted

[John Kirk]

From John Steinbeck's, East of Eden . . .

"Our species is the only creative species, and it has only one creative instrument, the individual mind and spirit of a man. Nothing was ever created by two men. There are no good collaborations, whether in music, in art, in poetry, in mathematics, in philosophy. Once the miracle of creation has taken place, the group can build and extend it, but the group never invents anything. The preciousness lies in the lonely mind of a man."

I thought that was worth sharing.

-Ted

Without any concrete examples, I'd say this is too simplistic.  I might agree that most but not all great creations are the brainchild of the solitary thinker.

TEP,

Thanks for the C&C anecdote.  During one of my two visits to the Sand Hills, they were there, having dinner one night.  Although I didn't obsess on their presence, I did look over a few times, and neither one appeared to say anything.  They're a quiet bunch.

[Lester George]

Maybe C&C would be better if each were working on their own.  Is it possible that one could be holding the other back?  

This collaboration thing intrigues me.  I think in its purest form, Steinbecks quote is true.  Maybe we have been lulled into a sense of false success over the years by collaborating.  Maybe Ayn Rand was right. we have become a mindless group of "second-handers".  

Tom P, I have also been on a site with Bill and Ben and I must say that (to their credit) they don't get hung up on what people "might think" or the "acceptance" of their product, they simply do what they think is best.  They seem to not be influenced by what others think and that is where I believe they excel.  

Lester

[Tom_Doak]

I don't know about that ... Lennon & McCartney were pretty successful, for one pair of collaborators.  In fact, there are a whole slew of songs with separate musical & lyrical credits.

[Kyle Harris]

I don't know about that ... Lennon & McCartney were pretty successful, for one pair of collaborators.  In fact, there are a whole slew of songs with separate musical & lyrical credits.

All of Elton John.

[paul cowley]

I've also observed Paul Cowley out in the field with no one else around him carrying on a conversation quite loudly with someone who clearly wasn't there. He certainly wasn't talking to me and I really didn't want to say anything about it and I certainly didn't want to ask him who he was speaking with but I did notice when he was done it seemed like he'd resolved whatever architectural problem he had.

Tom....you probably were watching me while I was cell phoning.

[TEPaul]

"Maybe C&C would be better if each were working on their own.  Is it possible that one could be holding the other back?"

Lester:

Of the time or two I've seen them together and talking to the two of them a time or two about their partnership I just don't think there's much possibility of that, even if the both of them can and have worked apart from one another over the years. I think they both feel their collaborative partnership for whatever reasons is better and it just might be one of the most unusually constructive collaborative partnerships the business has ever seen. I think the deal is they both really do have great respect for one another and what they each bring to it.

[TEPaul]

"Tom....you probably were watching me while I was cell phoning.  

Yeah, maybe that's what it was. I mean here we usually are, way out in a field in the middle of nowhere with few around and that cell phone of yours makes it seem like we're in Grand Central Station! By the way, if you don't do it first I'm personally going to get rid of that Clint Eastwood "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" ring tone on your cellphone!  

[Jason McNamara]

I don't know about that ... Lennon & McCartney were pretty successful, for one pair of collaborators.  In fact, there are a whole slew of songs with separate musical & lyrical credits.

That is an interesting pick, since their version of collaboration would be the equivalent of each basically doing 8 holes solo, with only minimal assistance from one on the other's holes.

(Oh, and George would gladly do two holes semi-grudgingly allocated to him.  They wouldn't get much fanfare, but they'd wind up being great.)

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:

Your analogy would be better to say that Lennon did the greens and McCartney the bunkers ... they weren't doing the SAME thing.  And yet few of us are so into music that we separate the two pieces in terms of our enjoyment.  (And George could built great greens, too, when they let him.)

In terms of the quote at the start, though, I would agree in that case that the "genius of creation" did not spring from both simultaneously ... I'm sure each song started with a bit of music or lyrics and evolved from there through hard work.  In golf course architecture, if there is a comparable moment of artistic inspiration, I would say for most projects it comes during the routing of the holes.

[Philippe Binette]

Tom, what did Ringo did?

[Tom_Doak]

Philippe:  Somebody's got to keep the beat going.

[Brad Huff]

until Yoko came in and told John he should build a different style of hole...

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Did you realize McCartney can't read music? Do you think that might be something akin to you not being able to understand or use a topo?

He keeps saying he wants to learn to read music one of these days but he's just been too danged busy for the last thirty five years or so.

Did I tell you I ran into him about three times over two days this year in Easthampton?

Yep, and the last time I ran into him he looks at me, or maybe he was looking at my golf cap that said "Prairie Dunes" and he says; "Where's that?"

Yep, and I said to him:
"Well who the hell wants to know and by the way would you consider changing your clothes tomorrow because you've been wearing them for two straight damn days?!"

[Philippe Binette]

From Tom Doak:
Philippe:  Somebody's got to keep the beat going.

for our crew at sagebrush it would be: Somebody's got to keep the BEER going...

[Lloyd_Cole]

I can't read music either, at least not fluently enough for it to be of any use to me. But I have, in a roundabout way, scored parts for a string section...

The key to Steinbeck's quote is - 'Once the miracle of creation has taken place, the group can build and extend it, but the group never invents anything.'

Certainly this is the way Lennon and McCartney wrote. They never collaborated on an idea and they very rarely did more than help fine tune the other's idea. They were, in fact, more like editors to each other.
The only exception, I believe, is 'A day in the life' which two unfinished song ideas stuck together. No prizes for guessing who wrote which bit.

Jamming to create songs is the musical equivalent of the Hollywood screenplay thinktank, or round table, and we all know what great movies this approach has given us. The only band I can think of that did it successfully (Talking Heads) had an undisputed leader who made the ideas into songs.

Successful songwriting partnerships almost always have strict demarcation of role - one writes the words, one the music. Elton never wrote a lyric, although he did give Bernie pointers, and themes that he would like to sing about - Someone saved my life tonight is a song that was written out of Elton's experiences (accepting his homosexuality, I believe) but Bernie wrote the words. Very good they are too.

All of this leads me to believe that it must have been very tough for Tom and Jack at Sebonack, but Tom's relationship with Urbina seems like a natural sure thing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Steinbeck might be right, but when creating a golf course, I have been is the middle of some creative brainstorm sessions.  Maybe someone says "what if we move it over here?" but another builds on the new idea by moving it another ten yards back, and another suggests it dogleg the other, way, and the first says lets use this tree and so on.

When a small group gets cooking and ideas come rapid fire on something like that it is really exhilarating.

[Tony Ristola]

Only one who devotes himself to a cause with his whole strength and soul can be a true master. For this reason mastery demands all of a person.

It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer.

Albert Einstein

He doesn't discount collaboration, but it isn't necessary either.

[Jason McNamara]

Jason:

Your analogy would be better to say that Lennon did the greens and McCartney the bunkers ... they weren't doing the SAME thing.  And yet few of us are so into music that we separate the two pieces in terms of our enjoyment.  (And George could built great greens, too, when they let him.)

Tom, I perceived your earlier comment as one of the Beatles always doing the music and the other doing the lyrics.  But with Lennon & McCartney, the typical song is primarily (not exclusively!) the work of one Beatle (whoever is singing).  McCartney didn't always do the bunkers!

If I misunderstood, my apologies.  No matter - I like them both (and especially Harrison's stuff).

In golf course architecture, if there is a comparable moment of artistic inspiration, I would say for most projects it comes during the routing of the holes.

Imagine if bands had to release a concept album (i.e. flowing, tied-together, "routed") every time.  That's more like a musical, probably - Rodgers and Hammerstein, or what have you.

ps.  Tom, if you're really a Beatles junkie, and want a good insight into their process to while away those winter-in-Michigan hours, Lewisohn's Complete Beatles Recording Sessions has been re-released.  (It's a book that was almost as hard to find as the Confidential Guide.)