Did GCA jump the shark with Sebonack?

[Dan Boerger]

Actually, you could make the argument this country was founded on dissent. It's my observation Americans are willing to self-correct more than most -- we'll up the families just about anytime and move to where the jobs are, work long (ok, sometimes too long) hours to succeed and then cram 2 weeks of vaction into 2 days. It may be a "ready, fire, aim" culture to some degree but it's full of passion and still a wonderful meritocricy.

Much of the French, IMO and from my observation, simply believe all aspects of their culture are superior to all others. It's just simply not the case, however.

[Matthew Hunt]

Much of the French, IMO and from my observation, simply believe all aspects of their culture are superior to all others. It's just simply not the case, however.

It's not my personal opinion but that’s exactly what the French think of English and Americans. Hey, they seem to like us Irish and Scots .

[Craig Sweet]

Americans have short memories and forget the role the French played in our insurgency war with the British back in the late 1700's.

[Tim Pitner]

Have you seen comedian Doug Stanhope's bit mocking younger Americans for talking about how "we" saved France in two world wars?  It's very funny stuff.  

[Dan Boerger]

Matthew - That's probably very true. But, I don't know how any reasonable thinking person could look at our American "way" of vacationing and not think we have a long way to go to catch up with the more civilized European way of doing things in that area. (I realize the irony of posting this on a golf related site!) -Dan

[Craig Van Egmond]

Just for the record Fonzie jumped the shark on water skis... you can watch it on youtube of course...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE


Besides, GCA jumped the shark after Sports Illustrated.  

[cary lichtenstein]

I really wonder how much design influence JN has on his courses? He is responible for dozens of courses and I would bet he has trouble remembering the course names/developer's name/city/state/and who on his staff is the lead architect.

My best guess is that other than when he visits each course in person, he has very little to do with its design, he goes out, makes comments and changes and after he leaves, a portion of those changes are actually done.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Is it fair to give the credit for the magic of Sebonack to:

1. Nature - a bit less than one third
2. Tom Doak - a bit less than one third
3. Jack Nicklaus - a bit less than one third
4. Mike Pascucci, plus the associates of both architects - whatever's left to add to ONE.

?

But seriously, after seeing Sebonack, and realizing that Jack Nicklaus is a co-designer, it is hard not to think higher of Jack as an architect (if you have known him as a designer of English Turn, for example)

[Michael Robin]

Craig, thank you, water skis indeed.

[Jerry Kluger]

I think it is presumptuous to make statements which are supposed to be the view of most of those who participate on this site.  People certainly have their preferences but there are no uniform opinions amongst the 1500 participants.
 
Certainly, some architects' designs are preferred over others by many posters but there are no uniform rules that everyone automatically agrees that everything an architect has done is good or bad.  Nicklaus has evolved over the years and I believe for the better.  You cannot say that everything Pete Dye has done is great nor is everything that Tom Fazio has done bad.  

The area which seems to generate the most disdain is the work being done by some on older courses. You still have to keep in mind though, that there are some very influential and important people in the golf world who are approving of that work before it is done.

GCA would loose a great deal of credibility if there was uniform thought.  It is the differences of opinion which help this site flourish.

[Michael Whitaker]

I really wonder how much design influence JN has on his courses? He is responible for dozens of courses and I would bet he has trouble remembering the course names/developer's name/city/state/and who on his staff is the lead architect.

My best guess is that other than when he visits each course in person, he has very little to do with its design, he goes out, makes comments and changes and after he leaves, a portion of those changes are actually done.

Cary - I have often wondered the same thing about Nicklaus and Fazio designed courses. With the volume of work they do how can they be intimately involved with a project from start to finish? I'm sure they have pet projects (like the Nicklaus "Signature" courses) that get more attention than others, but the lead designers have to be the guys who do the heavy lifting. It would be interesting to see who really makes most of the routing decisions on a Nicklaus or Fazio course before the Big Guys step in to nip & tuck them.

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

Once in a blue moon, it's me.  

From what I've seen and heard, Nicklaus and Fazio are pretty different in terms of how they put time into their projects.

Jack is contractually obligated to spend less time on his overseas projects, but for all the "signature" designs in the USA, I think he tries to spend approximately equal time on all of them -- partly because some contracts specify a certain number of days, but partly because he is very intent on the client getting what they pay for in terms of his personal time.

Fazio seems to understand that certain clients don't care so much about how much time he spends personally on their site, and others want him more involved, and seems to feel more free to divide his time accordingly.

As to who really does the work, both of them have deep organizations with a lot of talent, and that makes it hard to divide up the responsibility for their success.  Plus, there are generally as many versions of "who did what" as there are people on a job.

[Matthew Hunt]

Michael:

Once in a blue moon, it's me.  

From what I've seen and heard, Nicklaus and Fazio are pretty different in terms of how they put time into their projects.

Jack is contractually obligated to spend less time on his overseas projects, but for all the "signature" designs in the USA, I think he tries to spend approximately equal time on all of them -- partly because some contracts specify a certain number of days, but partly because he is very intent on the client getting what they pay for in terms of his personal time.

Fazio seems to understand that certain clients don't care so much about how much time he spends personally on their site, and others want him more involved, and seems to feel more free to divide his time accordingly.

As to who really does the work, both of them have deep organizations with a lot of talent, and that makes it hard to divide up the responsibility for their success.  Plus, there are generally as many versions of "who did what" as there are people on a job.

So are you saying their business and Leadership skills out-weight their 'Design Intelligence'?

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

Where the heck did I say anything like that?

My last paragraph wasn't meant to imply that either man is not the "real" designer of their courses, only that others also contribute, and in their organizations who does what is (probably deliberately) hard to discern.

I wouldn't agree with Michael W. that the lead designers [if he meant lead associates] "are the guys who do the heavy lifting".  If you don't think Jack Nicklaus wants to know EVERY detail of the courses he's building, you're wrong.  Cary has clearly never spent any time with the man.

[Tony Ristola]

Chris,
I had a couple discussions about this precise subject with a long time lurker. The switch in perception was palpable.

That's OK if it's justified. Is it?

I haven't seen any of his new work so I can't say... but photos-film of Concession and Sebonak looked better than what I'd seen 'em do before.

[Matthew Hunt]

Matthew:

Where the heck did I say anything like that?

My last paragraph wasn't meant to imply that either man is not the "real" designer of their courses, only that others also contribute, and in their organizations who does what is (probably deliberately) hard to discern.

I wouldn't agree with Michael W. that the lead designers [if he meant lead associates] "are the guys who do the heavy lifting".  If you don't think Jack Nicklaus wants to know EVERY detail of the courses he's building, you're wrong.  Cary has clearly never spent any time with the man.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your point. I have heard such sentiments expressed by people both in and out od the industry.

[John Moore II]

I do not think GCA 'jumped the shark' (what a stupid expression) with Sebonack at all, I think there had been an evolution in Jack's work for a while, same as there is an evolution in every architects work over time. Perhaps it was simply with that course that the overall evolution came to be clearly seen.
Matt-your comment on business and leadership skills, I would say that those skills are equal to the design skills, or else they would not be where they are.

Tom Doak--do you agree with the assessment about the leadership skills being roughly equal to design ability? Meaning that since you are probably not able to spend all your time at one site, would your work turn out the same if the site supervisor was not able to maintain your vision of the course while you were away?

[Tom_Doak]

Johnny:

The answer to your question depends on what one is trying to accomplish.

If it's "maximum output" of good work, then management is VERY important.  And by far the most important part of management is to find good and talented people to assist you.

But, there are two premises here that I'd have to disagree with:

1)  If your design skills aren't pretty good, and you're not a famous name in golf already, you are never going to get into the position where your leadership and management skills matter much; and

2)  It depends on how many courses you want to be building at one time.  If you're only trying to build one or two great courses, you can do that without a lot of others on your payroll, although you've still got to have good leadership skills to get the crew to build something exceptional.  As you take on more projects, the value of leadership and management goes up exponentially ... and if the associates are REALLY good, there should certainly come a point where their input is more valuable than the leader's.