Fox Chapel and the Curtis Cup

[John_D._Bernhardt]

What a beautiful course. I am in love with 17 and some of the other holes there. Who has played there and lets talk about a great historic course and event. go Meredith Duncan, my favorite LSU tiger.

[M]

leigh ann hardin is hot! but she sucks at golf. her credential are bogus. 19 AJGA titles? so what. try winning a real golf event.


fox chapel is an amazing golf course with great bunkers! 17th playing 230 for the ladies? they all had to use drivers!!! haha!

[Bill_McBride]

Can someone give us some background on Fox Chapel?  I was trying to figure out what course they were playing because the announcers never did say where the Curtis Cup is being played.  Beautiful course, lovely bunkering shapes.  The aerial views of the 17th Biarritz were super, what a beautiful hole.  It was interesting to see what club the ladies hit up there, some were carrying driver onto the back section beyond the swale, and it wouldn't hold.  Where is the course, who's the architect (CBMc? Seth Raynor?), what's the history?  Thanks..........

[Mark Studer]

1925 Seth Raynor..they have just finished an excellent bunker restoration with Brian Silva's help..they have also expanded green shapes out to the original squared up shapes circa '25. My favorite restored feature is the first phase of tree removal that showcases the wonderful views of this prime golf property. The meandering  creek is now in view that had been hidden by white pines and willows along #18.  I do stress that they are still  in phase ONE  of tree removal....but still a GREAT start and with the beginning of puttting green area tree removal comes the best for playability.....bouncing golf balls on firmer turf.  GREAT job Fox Chapel! The  committee of the green at Fox Chapel has done their homework.

[TEPaul]

I might add that apparently Fox Chapel is a Raynor with very little documented architectural attribution to prove it or work off of in restoration--done by Silva. My impression from the other day is the club suspects that Charles Banks might have spent some work time there too at some point. To look at a few of the greens and green-ends it would not be surprising!

The star of the architectural show at Fox Chapel may very well be their enormous Biarritz #17. That hole has the ability and potential to be one of the really great flat ground front green section biarritz dip holes of the world.

Clearly to me green section was before the dip and the obsoleted bunker evidence appears to be on both side (the enormous lengthy side coffin bunkering) to prove it. Even if they can't exactly prove it they should go for it and the concept anyway as it's a clearly known concept--the before the dip green section (Yale!).

If they did it the total greenspace on that behemoth green would be truly stunning!

As to tree removal, I'm not sure what's been done or how it once was or should be again but you can all read the above post by Oakmont's Mark Studer.

I believe I was told the club is going after the evergreens soon that aren't necessary. But if the club needs advice and help on original design intent bigtime tree removal they can always get it from Mark--he is nearby.

I swear MarkS is a smiling midnight major league ice-storm, all by himself! He also seems very up on maintenance equipment and innovative maintenance processes and I'm calling him soon to see what we can do about inventing a really good chainsaw silencer!

Fox Chapel to me has a clean and peaceful look to the course and it works well and looks really good, in my opinion, juxtaposed to some restored really fascinating sharp and clean Raynor and Banks architecture!

[George Pazin]

I made it to the Curtis Cup on Saturday & came away very impressed with the course. In spite of signs saying photography prohibited, I managed to take 25 pictures. Nobody said anything because I was taking pictures of the course away from all the players. I will try to post the photos later this week if time permits.

Tom Paul -

Don't know if you caught any of the action on the tube, but they most definitely had the biarritz mowed to green length entended through & in front of the trough. In fact, I was reviewing the tape afterward on Saturday & I think I saw myself, standing at the front edge of the green while one of the matches was putting out.

I have to wonder how firm the greens were when people can land & stop drivers on the second portion of the green. I also think the TV yardage was slightly inflated - they played from the front of the tee box. The back was marked with one of those metal markers as 231 to the center & the sign along side the tee box said 221. The hole locations were all on the back section, but I think only the morning locations were significantly back.

[mike_malone]

I was interested in the 90% angle of some of greenside bunker faces --nice but how does one maintain them?

[George Pazin]

I don't know how they are maintained, but the difference before & after restoration is amazing & I have clear photographic evidence to back it up - sorry, Patrick.

The program that was handed out has photos that were taken shortly before the restoration began. I didn't notice this until later, but I actually took some photos that will show direct changes, mostly for the better, IMO, though I don't know nearly as much about Raynor as most on this site. Hopefully, George Bahto will be able to comment on my photos & give the course & the work a big thumbs up.

[TEPaul]

GeorgeP:

I did see a little of the Curtis Cup towards the end and I also noticed--maybe from the blimp that the front section of the Biarritz did look like it was cut to green height.

In fact, technically it really isn't greenspace though. It has that very short chipping area cut to it much like a number of the approaches at Merion now do. From afar (from the fairway approach etc) that short chipping cut is very deceptive and does look like green space but it isn't--it's just extremely close mown chipping or approach area!

I got out and walked all around the front of #17 last Tuesday evening and could see what they were doing in front. Obviously they've been cutting it with green mowers but at a higher height than the back green space. Unfortunately, whatever mower and height they were using was scalping the top of the roll down into the dip and that obviously worries them.

Hopefully this won't prevent the club from thinking about restoring the front section to actual greenspace and greenspace height. They may have to "soften" that roll on top of the dip a bit to prevent scalping but my recommendation was to look into a piece of green mowing equipment that has the latest in "rolling mower heads".

To do architectural justice to that Biarritz green they have to restore back the coffin bunkering on either side to start it where the green section started before the dip. On the right coffin bunker it's very obvious but on the left not so much although I think it's still pretty clear to see the gentle demarcation of the beginning of the old left bunker.

The club has done a good deal of restoration work with Silva but apparently there is some to go and I got the impression the club was attempting to really upgrade and perfect thier "processing" with the membership (if you know what I mean) for future restoration measures.

But I truly hope they get that Biarritz back to actual front green section and the bunker restoration with it because that hole does have the potential to be a knockout star if they do that!

You're absolutely right about the yardage reported on that hole on TV. The gals were way ahead of the 231yd marker which is no more than 3-4 paces from the back of the tee box. They probably had the yardage calculated to the pin but even that seemed not to be 240--but who knows--it might just be an indication of how big that green really is--even before they hopefully restore the front green section!  

[George Pazin]

Well, I guess there may be a minute difference in the mowing length, but I couldn't tell, & the USGA official that I spoke to - didn't catch his name - said it was being mowed to green length. There was a bit of scalping, as I'm sure was obvious on TV.

What do you think about the maintenance meld? Was that firm & fast? It was definitely fast, but didn't seem super firm to me. Seems to me, drivers shouldn't be able to hit & hold the back section.

[SPDB]

Wasn't the front of the biarritz, as originally designed, not supposed to be greenspace, or did it differ from site to site? I think I recall George B. saying that the green was not originally meant to extend to the front section. I know that in an old course rendering of The Creek, the green did not extend past the swale. Biarritz greens at places like Camargo and Piping would give credence to this notion, except I am uncertain if these greens are maintained as originally designed.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Thanks and I cannot wait to see the pictures. I am forwarding them to my friends at Metairie CC in New Orleans to riemforce the greatness that comes from good restoration.

[SoLa_in_NoIll]

John, I'm a fellow Tiger, but I must point out that you spell "Go" wrong in your picture.     I didn't get a chance to see the Curtis Cup, but Meredith has an exciting future ahead of her after her days at LSU.  

What's the status with Metairie?  Are they undergoing (or planning) a major renovation?

As for me, I grew up playing Sherwood Forest in BR.  My Dad's now a member at BRCC, and I've played there a few times in the last few years.  They've done some nice renovation work there as well.  

Geaux Tigers!

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

Biarritzes could have the greenspace before the dip or not. Certainly Yale still does but Piping's never did. For the key to how they were designed to be (greenspace before the dip or not) I look for where the big coffin bunkers on either side of the green start or once did. Clearly at Fox Chapel you can see the bunkers used to start well before the dip indicating before the dip once was greenspace.

The same is true of the mysterious Biarritz at Westhampton (bunkers start well before the green front) but the dip appears never to have been there!!?? But nevertheless even if the dip was never there I bet the greenspace once started about where the bunkers did, but not anymore!

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Scott, You are correct about the spelling. However I misspell at least one word every post as it is and Ran does not seem to understand the need for spellcheck here in Yabba land. Metairie was a Raynor design that Daddy Haas almost destroyed while he was the pro there in the 1950's. the current Prsident, Historian and greens committee desrved much credit for taking on the restoration. There is not a lot to work with but I have high hopes and will be supportive wherever and whenever possible. Where are you now. 28 days to kickoff. Go( as spelled for nontiger understanding) Tigers

[SoLa_in_NoIll]

John, I didn't realize that "Metry" was originally a Raynor design, but I do know a little about Freddie Haas.  I'm not sure I ever played the course, but I've been out there (played pee-wee football at Metairie Playground next door).  In fact, I think my parents played it this weekend with friends of theirs.  

I live in Evanston, Illinois, now, attending the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern.  I hope to make it down for the Ole Miss game, and I'll be making the UK game in Lexington.  Nice to know there is another Tiger and Louisianian on this board.

[SPDB1]

Tom - then the next logical question becomes what dictated whether SR/CBM chose to extend the green through the swale or not? seems like an interesting question to me.

PAGING GEORGE B

[SoLa_in_NoIll]

For what its worth, this is from an article in the January/February 2002 edition of Links Magazine about Raynor holes (Biarritz, Redan, Cape, etc.) written by Brian Silva:

Biarritz adaptations come in several varieties:  At Fishers Island and Lookout Mountain, where the front portion and swale of the Biarritzs were designed as fairway; at Fox Chapel, the swale and front portion of the green have been grown in as fairway; at Yale and St. Louis, the approach and swale areas are appropriately maintained as putting surface.  In most cases, bunkers flank either side of the lengthy green, as they do at Black Creek's Biarritz 17th.

So, at least according to Silva, it sounds like it was originally greenspace in the front.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Scott, let me know when you come down and we can play a round. there is noone i like to beat more than the Manning U. Rebs. One of my favorite guys is John Strawn who grew up there(Evansville) but lives in Portland now.

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

I have no idea why Raynor/MacD did some Biarritzes with greenspace before the dip and others without and frankly I'd be amazed if even George Bahto does either. I doubt they would have written why they did it one way or the other at various places.

I do know though that the bunkering is a bit of a giveaway as to how it might have originally been designed.

If I were to guess though I might say that it could have to do with the topography of the various Biarritzes. In other words a downhill shot to a Biarritz like Piping Rock would not be as conducive to the front green section as a more level one. I'm sure the total length of the hole probably had something to do with it too--the much longer ones may have been more likely to have front section greenspace--but that's pure guessing on my part!

The overall thing to keep in mind with the Raynor/MacD concept holes is they were never intended to be exact copies of each other--the beauty of them was often in their differences and interesting variations from each other.

[GeoffreyC]

For what its worth, my opinion on biarritz greens has changed somewhat.  I previously thought that having both front and rear sections cut as green was the way to go.  Variety, etc. However, I play the 9th at Yale all the time and I've come to realize that

1- I anticipate the pin location on #9 every time I finish at the 8th hole. Whenever the pin is cut in the front section of the green I'm disappointed!  Yes its still a precise shot over water to a front pin and hitting just a bit strong results in a putt up from the swale. The pin is up front way too often (at least 80% of the time).  This is a sin.

2- Its a much better and more difficult hole when the pin is beyond the swale.  The green is tilted much more severely from right to left and the short game is more challenging and requires more thought and options when you miss the green to a back pin.  This is especially true when you miss short of the swale.

My conclusion from playing this hole numerous times and seeing others like the monster biarritz at The Knoll is that only the section beyond the swale should be green OR the pin should be in the back the vast majority of the time.

George- I'd love your thoughts on this topic!

[George Bahto]

I seriously doubt that there were but a few original greens of CB - SR and Banks that were originally designed as full putting surfaces.

I think the double green sort of evolved in the early days to just a few courses .... the most notable examples were, of course, the (once great - hah) Yale 9th and the Chicago re-do by Seth in 1923.  

I hope I was partly responsible for some of these expansions - I tried. I think they are great even though they may not have been meant to be that way by the designer(s).  If they would just keep the front “greens” more FIRM the less skilled and shorter hitters would have more fun playing these holes.

Early aerials of the Chicago Golf Club course, after Raynor built it in '23, shows only a rear SINGLE green - clear as day - so Seth did not design even that one as full blown green of over 230 or so feet long with a swale in the middle.

So what does that say for even Yale's green? My 1932 Yale aerial does show it as a full double green - so was that the only one by Raynor??

Well after Yale 1926, then what?  

Did Banks then do some on his own after the Yale 9th drew so much acclaim?

I spoke with the original Keeper of the Green who was at my course, the Knoll, from the beginning and he told me our 13th was full double green - probably 20,000 sf - when he was at the course - until a while after the lean days for the millionaires after the Great Depression. It reverted back to single green because of money, manpower and material.
It had a single tee, as neearly all of them did, and ours plays over 245 from the tips. Forward tees were added in the '50s.

So was Yale the only one because of the high tee-box as the original hole was in France?

Myself and my faithful editor Gib Papazian have a full blown Biarritz article coming out in the next issue of Neil Crafter's great Australian golf architecture magazine: "The Journal" (Journal of the Soc. of Australian Golf Course Architects) documenting Biarritz from 1888 on. I have a photo of an oil painting of the original hole painted in the 1890s which will give you a real idea of what CB Macdonald had in mind when he wanted to duplicate (to some extent) this dynamic hole.

A friend just went to Biarritz, France a month ago and I had him photograph the location of the tee and the green of the original hole, the “Chasm” hole - alas, nothing but homes and condos - not even the hotel on the 80' cliff. The course has moved inland a bit.

Neil's mag is one of the best on golf architecture!

I have two versions of quotes about playing Biarritz holes - neither mention a front putting surface. The full quotes are in the article and are in my (delayed!!!!!  #$#&$# book - Sleeping Bear!! really sleeping!) ..... sorry - in my upcoming book, The Evangelist of Golf - The Story of Charles Blair Macdonald.

The pin should never be in the front section ! - not even at Yale (R.I.P.) I wonder if Seth Raynor is seeing what is happening there - perhaps his best course.

[Nick_Ficorelli]

Can anyone shed any light on what other typical Raynor holes exist at Fox Chapel, and if they were included in the recent restoration?

[TEPaul]

I think Fox Chapel has all the Raynor usual "concept" suspects athough someone more familiar with the course will have to tell you what and where.

I analyzed two of them the other day though. #6, a great reverse redan with one of the most severe and radical "kickers" basically on the front left of the green you could imagine.

If the pin is front (which it was) on this hole and you happen to be in the massive left bunker you'd better take your medicine and play the bunker shot down near the back and putt back down. Even if you're Floppy Phil it wouldn't be wise to go at the front pin from that left bunker unless you want your next shot to be from the bunker on the other side.

And then of course there's the massive Biarritz at #17.

[George Pazin]

George B. can tell you which holes of these are the standards, but here is the list:

Hole 1: 403 yds/Away
Hole 2: 478 yds/Punch Bowl
Hole 3: 161 yds/Eden
Hole 4: 434 yds/Long
Hole 5: 335 yds/Cape
Hole 6: 178 yds/Redan
Hole 7: 287 yds/Alps
Hole 8: 469 yds/Plateau
Hole 9: 407 yds/Dustpan
Hole 10: 403 yds/Springhouse
Hole 11: 138 yds/Short
Hole 12: 339 yds/Leven
Hole 13: 417 yds/Corner
Hole 14: 362 yds/Rodgers Field
Hole 15: 371 yds/Step
Hole 16: 416 yds/Raynor's Prize
Hole 17: 221 yds/Biarritz
Hole 18: 539 yds/Glade Run