[Joel_Stewart]

I've heard from some people that Poppy Hills is getting ready to do a makeover on the golf course.   Often thought of as the worst course on the 17 mile drive, its been a constant headache for the AT&T since it replaced Cypress Point.  A poll of PGA players named it the 3rd worst course on tour.

The course has had some drainage problems and of course there are a number of absurd undulating greens.  Lastly, there are a bunch of doglegs which become predictable.

The good is that it's owned by the Northern California Golf Association and home to many tournaments.  Its fairly priced for NCGA members, downright cheap on weekdays.

I believe they are in a stage where they sent out letters of interest to architects and now need to widdle it down, get some presentations in and then a finalist.   You have to assume Nicklaus and Fazio have the upper hand but maybe somebody will have the sense to hire Gil Hanse who did an amazing job at the TPC Boston.   Not sure if C&C or Doak are interested?  You don't get many chances to work on the 17 mile drive.  

[JSPayne]

Hmm...

I've worked at this course, both as a summer intern and volunteer for the AT&T and it gets a very unfair rap. While it may be true that they would like to make some improvements (I honestly have no clue, as this is the first I've heard) I wouldn't necessarily agree that it needs them.

Poppy Hills is a tough, beautiful course. Manny Sousa, the super, does an EXCELLENT job maintaining it given the amount of rounds that go through there (the course is kept to nearly AT&T tournament conditions year round because they have a major NCGA event or other significant tournament nearly every week). While the strategy to some of the holes can become predictable for the pros, how many courses on tour can honestly boast that they provide variation on every round (besides pin placement)?

All in all, if they don't "make over" this course, I wouldn't be disappointed. It is a fact that though the pros say they dislike Poppy, if the wind isn't blowing out at Pebble and Spyglass, Poppy usually yeilds the highest scores. I'd be curious to know where exactly that pro survey is that puts it "3rd worst" and even more curious as to why the pros would feel that way. They certainly don't score as low on average there as on MANY of the other courses on tour.

Just doesn't seem like there's enough rational behind a major overhaul to warrent anything that might shut down the course for an extended period of time or even put the slightest dent in play because of the sheer amount of rounds and play that course gets.

[David_Tepper]

There was discussion on this board about possible changes at Poppy Hills 2-4 months ago. If someone pages back far enough, they should be able to find the thread.

As I recall, some of the possible changes included moving the tee on #1 back towards the 9th green, turning #10 into a par-4 and reversing the tee&green on #11.    

[JSPayne]

There was discussion on this board about possible changes at Poppy Hills 2-4 months ago. If someone pages back far enough, they should be able to find the thread.

As I recall, some of the possible changes included moving the tee on #1 back towards the 9th green, turning #10 into a par-4 and reversing the tee&green on #11.    

Now that sounds like more of a reasonable minor tweak that a major makeover. I can understand the new tee on #1, though at least for me, that hole seems tough enough as it is...it's a skinny little fairway to hit crossways off your tee shot. But I'd be extremely curious to know how they'd pull off flipping around #11 logisitically. That would mean players would have to walk backwards from 10 green to the new 11 tees, then backwards again from the new 11 green to 12 tees. Plus, I personally find #11 to be the hardest par 3 on the course as it is....long shot into a shallow multi-tiered, well bunkered green....all turning it around would do is make it uphill instead of slightly downhill.

BTW.....can't find that old thread, but would be interested to hear about more developments on this. It's not easy to do major rework on 17-Mile drive....just look at the new Pebble Beach course they've been trying to get off the ground for years now.

[Joel_Stewart]

I received an email from someone who said the NCGA might be feeling pressure since Tiger Woods doesn't like Poppy and has refused to play in the AT&T because of it.

I still think Gil Hanse would be a good choice but it depends on the budget and an ego of someone like Fazio who may want to re-route the course.  

[Jed Peters]

I received an email from someone who said the NCGA might be feeling pressure since Tiger Woods doesn't like Poppy and has refused to play in the AT&T because of it.

I still think Gil Hanse would be a good choice but it depends on the budget and an ego of someone like Fazio who may want to re-route the course.  

Almost anything would be a welcome change, Joel.

[AndrewB]

There was discussion on this board about possible changes at Poppy Hills 2-4 months ago. If someone pages back far enough, they should be able to find the thread.

As I recall, some of the possible changes included moving the tee on #1 back towards the 9th green, turning #10 into a par-4 and reversing the tee&green on #11.    

Yes, I mentioned that in a post halfway through a Poppy Hills thread and there was further discussion about the changes there.

[Mike Benham]

The whole idea that the NCGA, an amateur golf association that should be promoting the game of golf, is going to redesign it's golf course for the benefit of the professionals is disappointing.

I would hope that the Directors and Trustees of the NCGA review their charter, the objectives and goals of the NCGA and make sure that they are operating under those guidelines instead of the grandiose dreams of rubbing elbows with the professional golfers, securing their own spots in the ATT Pro-Am and the misguided idea to create a Top 100 golf course.

[Adam Clayman]

One of the best observations about Poppy Hills I heard was from a very good senior Am player, Bud Bradley. He described PH as a course that penalizes aggresive play.
 That justifies why so many pros probabaly don't like it. Throw in the quality of it's neighbors and you have a course most people would love to play(and ncga members do) yet those with access, to the better courses in the area, poo poo.

Poppy Hills will always be exponentially better than it's sister course in the east Bay, Poppy Ridge.

[Joel_Stewart]

Adam:

Its a good point about Poppy Ridge.  Its located near a major population center yet the course is virtually empty most of the time.   I have to believe they are losing boatloads of money.  I would love to see them do something out there as well.

I've never liked Poppy Hills, maybe because of its lofty neighbors but it could be much better.   Again, my fear is they will bring in Fazio or Nicklaus and it will improve 10%, which is not that much.......

[Adam Clayman]

Joel, Clearly the NCGA's gca accumen needs an injection of something inspired. I'd hope with the new Strantz down the road, coupled with the addition of John V to thier mitts, and, the ever approaching loss of Spyglass Hill, they realize they need to recognize the shift that has been made in gca over the past decade. And act accordingly. I won't hold my breath until I hear JV is on the committee. Switching the direction of 11 and tweaking the 12th will not be enough.

[JSPayne]

I received an email from someone who said the NCGA might be feeling pressure since Tiger Woods doesn't like Poppy and has refused to play in the AT&T because of it.

I still think Gil Hanse would be a good choice but it depends on the budget and an ego of someone like Fazio who may want to re-route the course.  

I hate to contribute to the rumor mill, but I have never heard of Tiger having a problem with Poppy. What I have heard on many occasions, even in a roundabout manner from the actual staff at the course, is that Tiger's problem with the AT&T is Pebble Beach's bumpy poa greens.

However, given how much he's DOMINATED at Pebble in other tournaments, I wonder if there's something else going on that keeps him from playing in the AT&T.

[David_Tepper]

JSPayne -

I thought the 6-hour rounds and the less than effecient crowd control (in addition to the bumpy greens - remember, the pin positions do not change for the first 3 rounds) is what kept Tiger away from the AT&T event.

Frankly, the AT&T is the one tournament that can most easily survive without Tiger in the field. I am pretty sure there has been no drop off in either TV ratings or attendance since he stopped playing the event.

DT

[JohnV]

Joel, Clearly the NCGA's gca accumen needs an injection of something inspired. I'd hope with the new Strantz down the road, coupled with the addition of John V to thier mitts, and, the ever approaching loss of Spyglass Hill, they realize they need to recognize the shift that has been made in gca over the past decade. And act accordingly. I won't hold my breath until I hear JV is on the committee. Switching the direction of 11 and tweaking the 12th will not be enough.

I am not on "the committee", not that there is one at this point.  All I can say is that there have been some preliminary conversations with a couple of architects whom I can not name.  There are plans to talk to some others.  No decisions have been reached and it is very premature to discuss any of this, but I can say that the changes are not contemplated to placate the PGA Tour players, but to make the course better overall.

[AndrewB]

I was out at Poppy Hills this weekend and noticed some changes, though not the ones rumored before (at least here).

The 14th tee has been moved to the right approximately 20 yards, many of the trees at the dogleg have been cleared and most of that area is fairway, and there is only one bunker in the landing area now.  That one bunker is located where the most prominent bunker was before, but that's now a good 20 yards into the fairway now rather than at the bend in the rough.  The bend at the dogleg is a softer curve now rather than a very sharp turn and, with the tee moved right, the shot to cut the corner more naturally fits the hole.

On 15 there is now also a new tee built directly behind the existing back tee.  The existing tee is 208 and I'd guess the new tee is in the 220 range.

[Bob_Huntley]

The whole idea that the NCGA, an amateur golf association that should be promoting the game of golf, is going to redesign it's golf course for the benefit of the professionals is disappointing.

I would hope that the Directors and Trustees of the NCGA review their charter, the objectives and goals of the NCGA and make sure that they are operating under those guidelines instead of the grandiose dreams of rubbing elbows with the professional golfers, securing their own spots in the ATT Pro-Am and the misguided idea to create a Top 100 golf course.

MIke,

A good precis and one that I hope is given some thought by the powers that be. However, when you hire a retired rear admiral as the Director of the organization to great fanfare and  fork out a large chunk of change in salary etc., only not to support him when the troops get restless, then it doesn't  seem they have the bottle for job at hand. A search is now on for a new Director, what, after being there for less than six months?

Bob 

[Mike Benham]

MIke,

A good precis and one that I hope is given some thought by the powers that be. However, when you hire a retired rear admiral as the Director of the organization to great fanfare and  fork out a large chunk of change in salary etc., only not to support him when the troops get restless, then it doesn't  seem they have the bottle for job at hand. A search is now on for a new Director, what, after being there for less than six months?

Bob 

Bob -

If the changes to #14 as defined by Andrew are correct, the NCGA is going to have a hard time convincing me that these changes were not "suggested" by the PGA Tour.

Softening the dogleg, removing bunkers at the dogleg, removing the exacting nature of the tee shot (distance) smacks of the type of negative comments made by top ranked amateur players and professionals.

Perhaps the NCGA listened to its members who made this complaint but since changes have been made to the course since its inception, it seems awfully convenient that they decided to change this hole at around the same time that they were renewing the ATT deal (if that is even true).

Mike

[Jed Peters]

Now they just need to blow up 11 and 12 and start over.

Shortening up the tee on 10 and making it a long four par wouldn't hurt either.

[Mike Benham]

It now looks like #2 at PH is going under the knife ...

2nd at Poppy


Click on this link for the RTJII drawing

[JohnV]

After a lot of discussion of about 7 different scenarios from doing little to blowing it up and starting over, the Poppy Holdings Board (a separate board from the NCGA Board) chose to do some of the less major changes.

These include:

A new green on #2 elminating the two greens that were there

Move several tees back, expand some
Renovate or remove some bunkers
Take out dead trees and branches
Calm the mounding on most holes
Sand Channel or sand cap critical areas on about 6 holes

Total cost over two years about $1.5M

The second green has been done and was sodded earlier this week.  We are currently playing the par 5 fourth hole as a par 4 with a temp green and a par 3 to the normal green.  17 has a new tee that is almost ready for grass.

RTJ II is designing the changes and overseeing the work.

[Mike Benham]

Nothing like info from the guy looking out the window at the project ... thanks John ...

A simple question though, why the need to change #2?  In the many times that I have played the hole, I can only remember a handful of times the hole was on the upper green?  Was it simply a cost of maintenance issue?

[JohnV]

Thanks, but my window overlooks the parking lot.

#2 - Having two greens just didn't make a lot of sense.  The lower green was not that great and the bunkers weren't really in play.  Also, people didn't always get the rule that they had to take relief when on the wrong green even though there were signs there and sometimes chipped from one to the other.  I also think the new green should be pretty interesting from what I've heard.  I haven't been out to look at it yet as I'm too busy with my Junior Tournaments.

[Pat Burke]

Man, I hated Poppy Hills from the moment we got there.  I am pretty certain that we could have played the Sistine Chapel after losing CPC and it would have been an issue.
In the early years @ Poppy it was too soft, and like mentioned earlier a fairly easy, but not very strategic course.  Felt like we were all hitting from similar areas on most holes.  It was also slloowww for some reason.  We moved better at Spyglass, which I thought was the toughest of the 3.
My home course is a RTJ jr course and like many that I played, they tend to look beautiful, but I'd rather play a course than photograph it

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks, but my window overlooks the parking lot.

#2 - Having two greens just didn't make a lot of sense.  The lower green was not that great and the bunkers weren't really in play.  Also, people didn't always get the rule that they had to take relief when on the wrong green even though there were signs there and sometimes chipped from one to the other.  I also think the new green should be pretty interesting from what I've heard.  I haven't been out to look at it yet as I'm too busy with my Junior Tournaments.

JV - wasn't it one big green at one point?  I sure remember putting from one level to the other.. but I could be mistaken for sure.

[JohnV]

I think the big problem that most pros have with Poppy Hills is that the doglegs are too short and the trees to big to go over them.  They have to layup off the tee a lot, which probably goes along with Pat's statement that everyone was playing from the same place.

It is probably slow during the ATT because the 5 par 5s are all easily reachable, even by quite a few of the amateurs.  Everything about the ATT is slow.

Interesting fact from the first round last year.  8 of 9 holes on the front 9 played over par while 8 of 9 holes on the back played under par. 

I don't know how it finished after 3 days.

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