[Matt_Ward]

Andrew:

I don't see the merits of the par-5 8th on the West Nine. No matter how big a tee shot the probability in getting there in two is simply not an option -- although I will admit I was present in '74 during the Amateur when George Burns did get there during one of his rounds. Given the fact that Burns didn't have a ProVI or a 460cc head driver -- that's quite impressive. Also, the hole has played roughly the same distance since then because of the way the George Washington cemetery backs up against the teeing area.

If memory serves -- Jim Thorpe attempted to hit driver "off the deck" during the '01 Sr PGA and the net result was really a mess -- he did make a par but it was more of a struggle than it ever needed to be for him that day.

I like the hole but Tillie has done much better par-5's IMHO.

[Greg Stebbins]

8 west is another great example of how tree growth has changed the lines of play.  Older members will tell you that the trees on the left off the tee used to be very short and one could take an aggressive line over them (bringing OB left very much into play) with the reward being a chance to get home in two.  Today the trees are so large that one couldn't even fathom that option.

Up until about 5 years ago, the trees on the left encroached on the fairway to the point that the only play off the tee was a 220 yard shot played well to the right.  This is on a 570 yard par 5!

A few years ago the club trimmed some of the trees on the left so that you could at least get to the preferred left side of the fairway without having to play a hard draw.  Last year the club elected to move the tee back and right which has straighted out the tee shot a bit and brought the OB left more into play.

Is the new straighter tee shot better than the situation that existed a few years ago?   I think so.

Does today's hole have nearly the strategic options or risk/reward attributes of the hole from 1927?  No way!  

I doubt that the hole will ever be restored to the way it played when it was designed because the perception would be that it would be too easy.  The original would be a great 17th hole with a decision to be made off the tee as to how aggressive to be.  Today, while still an excellent hole, it amounts to target golf with very few options other than two well placed lay ups and a pitch.

[AndrewB]

Do you feel a par five needs to reachable in two shots to make it a good hole?  I find the difficulty of the second shot from the right side of the fairway so significant that the risk/reward aspect is much more present than on many reachable par fives that might tempt me to take a shorter line to get there in two.  From over there you run the risk of playing catchup the rest of the way up the hole, making it easy to walk away with a bogey.

I believe this is one of Tillinghast's double-dogleg par fives.  Can you cite some others that you think are done better than this one?  I don't think I've ever played another one.

Also, the property line behind and left of the tee on 8W borders Paramus Golf course, not the Cemetery.

[Bill Brightly]

What makes 8 West special is the green. The severe right to left tilt requires a really well placed third shot, preferably from inside 140 yards, so the first two shots are all about getting to a good approach spot. If you leave yourself 170 or more to the green, the hole plays like a Redan, you have to bounce it in from the top right. I think it is a really unique hole. It was grossly over-treed, but much improved now. The OB is a negative, too bad they dont own the woods to the left of the hole. On a scale of 1 to 10, this hole is a 9.

[AndrewB]

Greg,

I agree that the tree cutback and new tee are an improvement in that they make the option of hitting to the left side of the fairway as it bends more realistic, so more people will try it.  I don't know of anyone aside from myself who would consistently attempt the shot, but it only cost me badly a few times (once against you).  If you get a decent lie in the left rough, it's better than the right side of the fairway.

What further changes would you suggest?  For someone of my length it will always be a three shot hole and it doesn't strike me as a green that would be easier to approach from very close, which takes away the "get as close as you can in two" option.  I'd probably always lay back even if I hit driver down there as far as I could.

What is your stance on the big tree on the right just after the rise in the fairway at about 200 yards from the green?  That is what makes me want to play down the left off the tee, not shortening the hole.

Bill,

I believe the club does own the woods left of the hole once you get past the tee.  I am pretty sure that area played as just woods in the Senior PGA and I've been told it's played as out of bounds for members just to speed up play.  The "mess" that Jim Thorpe was in that Matt referred to was hitting it in the woods left on his second shot.  He played it from there and I think the area is usually out of bounds for member play even that far up.

[Bill Brightly]

Andrew,

What do you think about OB stakes on the property?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

It speeds up play tremendously, and, you can't have golfers playing out of a cemetery, that's inappropriate.

[AndrewB]

Bill, I don't feel that strongly either way.  I think the woods are dense enough in there that the players are probably better off to take stroke and distance than try to hit it out.  It might be nice to have the option, but it would definitely slow up play.

Pat, the cemetery is on the south-west border of the property so it only borders the last bit of 4W and most of 4C.  There is definitely out of bounds on that side.  The left of 8W is dense woods that I believe the club owns. This map shows the woods bordering 8W near the top center and the cemetery below running diagonally from west to south.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

It speeds up play tremendously, and, you can't have golfers playing out of a cemetery, that's inappropriate.

The cemetary is 4 Center. My Dad is resting there, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't mind me hitting from there...as long as I saved my par...

[Mike Policano]

Matt,

8 West may be one of the best par 5's in the Met area. Not because of risk/reward options, but because it requires three very well-placed shots. You must be left or center in the fairway off the tee.
If you are on the right, it is very difficult to get the second shot to the right side and have less than 190 into the green for the third shot.

As Bill said, the green does have Redan shot qualities. It must be entered from the right side or risk being in a left greenside bunker which is so deep it would leave Abdul Jabbar with a blind bunker shot.

If your second shot clears the left fairway bunker 160 from the green and stays left, it leaves a blind uphill 3rd.

Bill,

OB was moved last year further left last year.

Greg,

How would you alter the hole to play better?

Andrew,

Are you refering to the tulip tree on the right side?  If so, there is a great picture of Tillinghast sitting at the base of that tree with his plans in hand. He may have set the hole up around that tree and the ones to the right which have been thinned out recently.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

With all due respect -- if you think 8W is one of the best par-5's in the Met area -- you need to play quite a few more -- especially from the Tillie contributions that exist. Compare the 4th at BB with 8W -- the former literally blows away the latter. I can provide other examples as needed.

I agree with Greg's comments because the tree growth issue has simply robbed the hole of what made it great from the very start. He is also spot on concerning the manner of play that normally occurs.

I see the hole now as one that DICTATES where you MUST hit to -- with little wiggle room for any differentiation in terms of strategic calculation / options. Great par-5 holes provide varied options for different levels of players. If you MUST hit only to a SPECIFIC POINT then the hole may still be a good one but the word great would not be uttered from my lips.

Cut the trees down on the left side and allow the gamble impulse to once again be part of the mix then matters would be far different, IMHO.

I don't agree with Greg that the "perception" that a restored hole is too easy because for every person trying to play the hole in an aggressive manner only a few would be really successful.

[AndrewB]

With all due respect -- if you think 8W is one of the best par-5's in the Met area -- you need to play quite a few more -- especially from the Tillie contributions that exist. Compare the 4th at BB with 8W -- the former literally blows away the latter. I can provide other examples as needed.

Perhaps it's not a lack of exposure to the holes you consider great, but just a difference of opinion?

I agree that the fourth at Bethpage is a great hole, certainly my favorite on that course.  Can you explain in more detail how it blows away 8W?

I see the hole now as one that DICTATES where you MUST hit to -- with little wiggle room for any differentiation in terms of strategic calculation / options. Great par-5 holes provide varied options for different levels of players. If you MUST hit only to a SPECIFIC POINT then the hole may still be a good one but the word great would not be uttered from my lips.

I think you are underestimating the options that exist from the tee now.  Perhaps they are not the options you would like to see, and more options could be created through additional tree removal (I would likely be in favor of that work), but there are options.

One can play safe away from the trees (as out of bounds) off the tee and leave themself with a difficult shot around the big tree on the right.  Or, one can take a more aggressive line down the left-hand side to get a good angle for their second shot, straight up the length of the hole.  If one does play out to the right from the tee then they can choose to challenge the tree and get up or past the bunker, or they can lay back to the area even with the tree that's short of the cross bunker; the latter is an easier shot but leaves a much longer shot in.

The shot from the tee is pretty intimidating if you are thinking about placing your ball on the left side of the fairway.  Enough that one wants to play away from the trouble out to the right.  But, the knowledge of the difficulty of the next shot creates a dilemma: do I do what feels safe now but makes the next shot hard, or what looks dangerous and makes the next shot easy?  This situation repeats itself on the second shot if you played safe off the tee.

[AndrewB]

Andrew,

Are you refering to the tulip tree on the right side?  If so, there is a great picture of Tillinghast sitting at the base of that tree with his plans in hand. He may have set the hole up around that tree and the ones to the right which have been thinned out recently.

I believe so.  If the big tree just right of the fairway after the rise and just before the fairway bends back to the right is a tulip tree, then I am.

I suppose the existence of such a photo indicates this is one tree that Tillinghast used as part of the design of the hole, rather than something that has come to infringe on intended lines of play.  That makes sense given the hole's design and I assume is enough to keep this tree from being cut down during the other tree removal that has and will continue to go on.

[Matt_Ward]

Andrew:

I stand by what I said -- if someone truly believes 8W is one of Tillie's finest par-5 holes and / or one of the best par-5 holes in the metro NYC area -- they really need to play a few others and if they have -- then really study what they failed to observe the first time, IMHO.

The 4th at BB provides for a clear choice at the tee -- you can challenge the huge fairway bunker on the left side if you believe getting home in two is an option worth taking. 8W doesn't really have any options at the tee -- you are stuck with getting your ball in particular landing zone and going from there.

In regards to the second shot at BB's 4th -- the player has to determine how aggressive / conservative a line of play they wish to take -- much of that depends on where the tee shot is located. The huge cross bunker at the 4th at BB serves as a chain reaction situation. If the tee shot is not hit properly the player must determine what line of attack can be followed -- keeping in mind just penal the cross bunker can be if one lands there.

Even after two thought-provoking shots -- the pitch to the green at BB's 4th is never easy -- unless one is able to hit far enough to the right to take away a direct play of the bunker between the player and the green. Gauging the proper distance to float a short wedge to the 4th is always difficult.

One other thing -- for those players who are long enough and in the right position off the tee -- going for the green in two is an option but you need a Nicklaus-ian height iron to carry the frontal bunker and still have plenty of spin to remain on the green. Few can pull that shot off but it done leaves the possibility for eagle.

In sum -- there's more options and risks associated with BB's 4th hole -- 8W is really not in its league IMHO.

8W is really a snore three-shot hole. There's no real option for being aggressive at the tee which can pay-off given the tight turn and limited amount of playable area. You are dictated to play to a certain position and then play from there. I don't doubt that if players layback because of a certain position off the tee then the demands become greater but the hole would play with much more fun if the trees were scaled back down the left side as Greg originally stated.

For me at least, elasticity is the hallmark of a great par-5. At 8W you get much less of that.

If you want another solid Tillie par-5 -- not at the level of BB's 4th but better, in my mind, than 8W check out the following example ...

The 9th at Somerset Hills. Plays roughly 530 or thereabouts yards. There are a series of cross bunkers -- they can be avoided with a solid play off the tee, but the landing area for the tee shots is partially hidden. The more left you play the more inviting the possibility in going for the green in two blows. The green complex is neatly protected by a series of bunkers and the putting surface will not suffer fools readily.

The 9th at SH is not brutally hard but options abound starting at the tee.

One last thought -- I salute RCC in going forward with their tree removal program. It's really helped and will only help further in opening up angles of attack that previously were limited in a number of instances.

[Mike Policano]

Matt,

Thanks for the detailed answers. I enjoy reading them.

I did state that 8W was one of the best (not the best) not because of risk/reward options (which are not as prevalent as 9 at Somerset Hills) but because 3 precise shots are required.

I think there is more than enough movement of the hole and the ground that make it undeserving of the "3 shot snore" moniker.

To me, 8W is a more demanding hole than 9SH. I played 9SH again in October and I enjoyed the hole. I would put them in the same league for different reasons.

9SH plays at a medium length with. good options and a very good green complex (who ever makes it into the back left greenside bunker?) and an easier par than 8W which says put your drive on the left side (and avoid the trees that were there when the course was built) then put your second on the right side or you will be left with a difficult 3rd to judge which is uphill to a green that cants severely right to left with serious left greenside bunkers.

When I have a chance, I will look at Gil Hanse's master plan for RCC and see what he proposed for the trees on the left.

Cheers

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I do agree with your comment -- from a three-shot perspective 8W is quite good. But, you see I tend to judge par-5 holes based on the belief that 2nd shot options are really a major element in what makes for an excellent par-5. The snore comment was that everything on such holes comes down to the 90-100 wedge shot. Watch tapes of the '01 Sr. PGA and that was how the hole was played time after time after time.

What I mean by varied options is that after a good tee shot the opportunity for real risk can be had by the player seeking to achieve it in going for the green in two blows. 8W doesn't have that dimension - sad to say it likely did have it when the trees on the left side of the hole were much lower.

Mike, when you say 8W is more "demanding" than the 9th at SHCC -- I have to ask, what does "demanding" have to do with architectural quality. I can name plenty of holes throughout the NYC metro area that are "demanding" but really are more one dimensionsal than anything else.

You said yourself the green at #9 SHCC is quite unique.

Mike, tell you what I would like to see at RCC -- is for the par-5's with the fairway breaks -- 3E and 4W should feature more of a rough-like appearance. I am a big fan of 3E and it would be interesting to see if the split fairway concept was ever really more rough-like in appearance when the course first opened than it has become now.

P.S. If you need another unique Tillie par-5 check out the 9th at Alpine in Demarest -- the hole is reachable with two good shots but the green NEVER suffers fools. No doubt someone can make a 3 but the hole can turn just as quickly and pounce on the person who ignores their limitations. The 18th at Alpine is also a daring type hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

It speeds up play tremendously, and, you can't have golfers playing out of a cemetery, that's inappropriate.

The cemetary is 4 Center. My Dad is resting there, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't mind me hitting from there...as long as I saved my par...

Bill,

It's also on # 4 West.

[Greg Stebbins]

Matt,

Regarding my mention of the "perception" of an easier hole with tree removal, that is an argument I have heard time and time again from many people arguing against the practice.  Many people are very concerned about anything that might lower the course and slope rating.   It is certainly not my opinion as I believe that more options will more likely just result in a greater range of scores.  

Regarding the merits of 8 west, I do believe that it is a very good hole with an excellent green.  I don't think it is a great hole as it is essentially target golf.  Regardless of the conditions of the day, the hole location, or tee location there is one place I want my tee shot to be and one place I want to be hitting my 3rd shot from.  There is simply no other way I would want to play the hole in its current state.  

If the area to the left off the tee is opened up,  I would be very tempted to play the hole aggressively with a left side hole location.  This might allow me to play a short pitch shot from the right side of the fairway for my third shot and use the slope on the right to funnel the ball toward the hole.  With a front hole location, I would probably lay up off the tee as I would want to approach the hole from the left side.  Right now, I have no choice as it is impossible to clear the rise in the fairway on the second shot without hitting a 290 yard huge hook off the tee.  

Regarding true three shot par 5's that I think are better, I would look to the other side of the property at #3 east.  The hole has one of the best greens I have ever seen.  I always have to think about exactly where I want to play my 3rd shot from depending on the wind, how soft the greens are, and the hole location.  

[AndrewB]

I guess I'm the only one that actually feels there are options on 8W.

[Mike Policano]

Matt,

I have played 9 and 18 at Alpine a few times. Neither of them stack up to 8W in my opinion.

It may not be that I haven't seen a number of very good and great par 5's in the Met area (although clearly not as many as you) but that you and I have a different criteria.

As for architecture, 8W is perfectly layed out on the land. It flows naturally and makes very good use of the movement in the land.

Again, it may not provide the options that other par 5's in the area provide, but it is a stellar par 5. It is also the hole that cost Nicklaus his chance for the 1990 US Senior Open if memory serves me right.

It may be like Mark Frost in "The Match" muses that MacKenzie might have thought "...Put it where I tell you or take your punishment" or maybe not.

Cheers

[Matt_Ward]

Mike P:

I can't speak to the fact of the conditions you encountered when playing at Alpine -- but if the greens there are at anything close to optimum -- the slope / contour at the 9th green at Alpine is simply awesome stuff to view and very demanding to handle - I would put that green among the very best I have ever seen from Tillie's creative hands. You also have a rolling fairway that keeps the player off balance in terms of trying to get there in two blows. One other thing -- the two bunkers that are offset of the green -- serve a protective wall that one needs to be avoided at all costs. Even laying up before them leaves a tough 3rd shot because often times you cannot see where the approach shot lands.

In terms of options the 9th at Alpine provides plenty of them. 8W at RCC may be more "demanding" in terms of its overall length -- but the options encountered at the 9th at Alpine, I believe, speak for themselves.

The 18th at Alpine is also no weak sister - though I believe your case is stronger with this example than with the aforementioned 9th.

I concur -- you and I may be operating under different criteria. But keep this in mind -- although Tillinghast did as fine a job as possible with 8W -- the net result is the benchmark for par-5 holes can, and in my mind, should be higher. I would have loved to seen the hole, in its original state, when the trees were considerably lower on the left side and provide for the kind of Cape Hole that Greg alluded to earlier.

Your comments on Nicklaus have more to do with the fact that the Bear's final round approach to 8W had more to do with the inability to really excel with the short irons. If I remember Trevino even alluded to this when commenting from the TV booth after playing the hole and watching the Bear play from roughly 110 yards out.

In sum -- you and I may see the role of par-5 holes in a slightly different manner but that's what makes such discussions so fun to read and respond to.


Greg:

Members at the club should not overly concern themselves in believing that CR and slope would be so grossly impacted to cause the overall stature of club to be effected. I concur with you -- the inclusion of "more" options would only serve to make the hole and experience when playing at RCC even better.

Greg, your outline on how you play the hole -- time after time after time -- only serves to highlight what I said previously. 8W follows a continuous one-way oriented pattern in playing the hole. It does require three well-played shot -- I concede that -- but par-5 holes, for me at least, need to have a broader array of options.

Your inclusion of 3E is also well stated. I have always believed that 3E has so much going for it even though it too is a three-shot par-5 hole. The putting green there is really one of Tillinghast's best at the complex.

[mark chalfant]

I feel Ridgewood and Forsgate are pretty much a dead heat. i feel the strech from 8-12 at Forsgate is  especially fine ! It includes two remarkable rollercoaster par fives ( 8 and 9) and  a charming par three of  135 yards, with a nifty  horseshoe green. The tenth  is also  a stout par four   that requires  a very  confident   approach to  its elevated green. #3-5 is another brilliant strech @ Forsgate that includes the muscular 195 yard third, and the lovely dogleg 5th to a vast punchbowl green. Many neat greens on other holes...

[Mike Policano]

Matt,

I agree with your summary comments on 8W.

As for 3E, late this year the fairway was extended on the left side some 30 yards up to the mounds on the left which start further back than the rest of the mounds.

As a result, it gives longer hitters a risk reward option that wasn't there before.

The long hitter must challenge OB on the left to get in a position to see the green and try to go for it in 2.

It is as you say, an excellent green complex that is set off at an angle from the fairway. It seems that I should get you and Greg out there together next spring. I would get Andrew too, except I think he is on some other coast.

Cheers

[AndrewB]

Mike,

I was back in October and saw the area of fairway they've cut into the mounds on 3E.  Greg may be long enough to try to run it up in there when it's playing firm, but I'm certainly not.  The only way it would change the hole for me is if I hit it in trouble off the tee and can't carry the mounds.  Then I might try to place it in that area so I can have a go at the green for my third.

The area of fairway they have cut into the right, back side of the mounds on 4W is more interesting for me.  It forces me to favor that side now on my second shot if I'm far enough back to be doubting my ability to carry the mounds.

[AndrewB]

Matt, Mike, Greg,

What are your favorite holes on each nine and why?  It feels like we've beaten 8W to death and I'm hoping this keeps the discussion going.

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