[wsmorrison]

Second of all, you know how those New Yorkers and North Jersey New York wannabees are.  They overstate and overblow everything about their turf and understate everywhere else, particularly Philadelphia.  Surely after breathing in all those refinery fumes for so many years that those guys are more than a bit loopy.  Exhibit A is Pat Mucci.

I've never been to Ridgewood, but I'll bet under closer inspection, it would not outshine our beloved Huntingdon Valley A,B and C nines.  Tom admits he doesn't have a vivid recollection of Ridgewood and hasn't seen all 27 holes at HVCC.  So let's toss out his opinion for now.  That just leaves a couple of homers-- sorry Andrew and a paid hack--sorry Justin   So we can throw their sentiments out as well.  You know what that means...HVCC in a first round knock out.  Take that Tillie  

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

"HVCC in a first round knock out.  Take that Tillie..."  

Spoken like someone who just wagered his house on Sonny Liston against that tall, gangly and soft-handed kid from Louisville...  

[michael_j_fay]

WHIFFENSNOOFFER !!!!!

[Mike Sweeney]

In the spirit of cooperation with the land locked posters from my hometown of Philly, this round goes to Flynn. Ridgewood is lacking in bunkering and strategy off the tee (in comparison). I have not played the C nine at HVCC, but the fact that it is very different from the Flynn 18 is a good thing in my book. I prefer something with contrast even when there are 36 holes.

My favorite nine at Ridgewood was the center 9 because of its diversity, but it still blended with the other 2 nines.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mr. Fay,

For your edification, a "Whiffensnoozer" is the central character in a series of fairy tales that Tilly created and told to his grand-children.

I'd be more than happy to send you a copy of his sketch of him if you'd like!

[wsmorrison]

Phil,

Or someone who gave the points to the Eagles and took the Patriots    Please send me a copy of the whiffensnoozer, or a whiffensnooffer if you have one of those too.

Michael,

That's pusilanimously super-annuated whiffensnooffer!

Mike,

I see you haven't been breathing in those refinery fumes in your NYC penthouse  You are right in having a graduated difficulty at HVCC makes for more interest.  The C nine is so differentiated from anything else, even with the necessary compromises that were required in resurrecting it.  The B nine was a bit more difficult than the A nine and these were to be used in ladies championship play.  The C nine was more difficult than the B nine and these two were used for men's championship play.  

I don't know why Tillinghast designed relatively similar nines or eighteens at Ridgewood, Winged Foot and possibly elsewhere.  It was likely to give a crowded club equal opportunities.  I like a design model that offers greater variety.  The two eighteens at Baltusrol are thankfully different, probably dictated by topography more than anything else.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

The Whiffensnoozer is on its way to you...

Of course I bet on the Patriots... I'm a Giants fan and bleed blue of course! Heck, I even root for the damn Cowboys when they play those hated Iggles...  

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Doak/Wayne,

Where does The Country Club fall within this discussion?

[wsmorrison]

Ahh, Mike.  A very good question.  I cannot say where it falls in comparison to Ridgewood, having never seen it.  Wow, as compared to HVCC?  I'll have to think on that.  What do you think?

[Matt_Ward]

It seems most people have been narrow in their thinking in responding specifically to what Mark C originally posted. The issue is not about Ridgewood alone.

One final thought -- a composite course involving all three nines at Ridgewood would make for an interesting layout but the overall logistics in providing for corporate tents, media center, full practice range and to handle the myriad of details tied to parking would make things very, very challenging.

Given the nature of such big time events Ridgewood was hard pressed to handle the '90 Sr Open and the recently held Sr. PGA a few years back. The only good news in that regard is that Sunday shopping is prohibited in Paramus (where Ridgewood is located) so that may prove helpful.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

In regards to your question -- keep in mind TCC does a switch the 2nd hole from a short par-4 to a long par-3.

Have to say this -- if forced to choose between the two as the better 27-hole layout -- my vote would go to TCC by a narrow basis. The reasoning why?

Simple.

TCC and Ridgewood have a number of weak holes but the far better holes comes from the layout in Brookline IMHO.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ahh, Mike.  A very good question.  I cannot say where it falls in comparison to Ridgewood, having never seen it.  Wow, as compared to HVCC?  I'll have to think on that.  What do you think?

Wayne,

I've not seen TCC, unfortunately, but was surprised that neither you or Tom had mentioned it in the discussion of the "best 27".  

I do certainly prefer HVGC to Ridgewood, and I'd be surprised if I wouldn't prefer TCC, as well.   I'd also be surprised if Tom likes Ridgewood better than Brookline.

I like Ridgewood a great deal, but there are some really dull holes on the lowest lying parts of the property, and I'd also be pleasantly surprised to find that they've taken out enough trees since my visit.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

I cannot think of a single dull hole at HVCC, so it has that over TCC and Ridgewood (your observation).  In fact, HVCC is solid to brilliant particularly holes A2,A4,A7,A8,A9,B1,B2,B5,B6,B8,B9,C1,C2,C3,C5,C8 and C9

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

As a 27 hole complex, Ridgewood may be stronger than TCC.

[wsmorrison]

"As a 27 hole complex, Ridgewood may be stronger than TCC."

Well, that explains it. Though it was hard to get past so much detail  

[michael_j_fay]

Phillip:

I must be illiterate. I'll take you up on your offer.

Thanks,

MJFay

[Jerry Kluger]

This seems to be a Tillie lovefest and I agree but I was wondering - what are the Tillie courses, which shall we say, are at a lower rung on the ladder?

[TEPaul]

"I've never been to Ridgewood, but I'll bet under closer inspection, it would not outshine our beloved Huntingdon Valley A,B and C nines.  Tom admits he doesn't have a vivid recollection of Ridgewood and hasn't seen all 27 holes at HVCC.  So let's toss out his opinion for now.  That just leaves a couple of homers-- sorry Andrew  and a paid hack--sorry Justin   So we can throw their sentiments out as well.   You know what that means...HVCC in a first round knock out.  Take that Tillie    "


Wayno:

Tom Doak admits he doesn't have a clear recollection of Ridgewood, does he? Well, that doesn't say much for the course since Doak apparently has one of the most amazing photographic memories imaginable.

I played Ridgewood in a Lesley Cup maybe ten years ago for three solid days and I don't really remember more than maybe six holes, no more.

However, that doesn't exactly say anything about the course because I can't remember much about anything anyway.  

What I do remember about that Lesley Cup at Ridgewood is I forgot my golf shoes because I had to go into the pro shop and pay full retail for another pair which almost killed me. And I know I was there because I still have a coffee mug that says Ridgewood C.C. on it which I must have inadvertently stolen at some point.  

[AndrewB]

For those who have said so, which holes do you consider dull at Ridgewood?  I have never been to Huntingdon Valley so of course I cannot make any comparisons, but from what I've read it seems like a wonderful course as well.

[Mike Policano]

Tom Paul,

In case Pat Mucci is concerned that you are overcome with guilt about inadvertently leaving Ridgewood with a coffee mug, please keep it as a token. If you care to come back, let me know. Also, for next time, the beer mugs are much better than the coffee mugs.

Like Andrew, I can't comment on Ridgewood vs HVCC other than Ridgewood is across the street from my house so it is more convenient for me.

Cheers

[Mike Policano]

Jerry,

Happy New Year!

A couple of Tillie courses further down the ladder are the short and sporty courses of Shackamaxon in Westfield NJ (1917) and Suburban in Union NJ (1922).

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Ridgewood is across the street from my house  

Cheers

Now there is some architectural expertise that I need to get my wife on board with!

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Mike Policano,

If someone can't remember to bring their golf shoes to play Ridgewood, does it surprise you that he can't remember many of the holes at Ridgewood ?

In addition, TEPaul has a 3,749 set coffee mug collection from courses that he's visited.

Wayno,

I could have typed a long post, going into great detail, but thought that brevity would serve everyone better.

Many recall TCC in the context of a gerrymandered golf course, one where par 4's are made into par 3's, holes are skipped, and par 5's are made into par 4's, while other hybrid holes are inserted into the "18".

Ridgewood doesn't have to resort to such gimmickrie.

The par 5's are strong as are the 3's and 4's.

I don't like the concept of a gerrymandered routing, at TCC, Ridgewood, Congressional or any other course.  I think it conveys an inherent weakness in some of the holes.

TCC is a wonderful golf course, however, # 2, # 9, # 10, # 12 in their natural form are removed from the playing rotation.

# 1, # 2, # 3 and # 4 from another nine are combined to form a three hole insert, with # 4 transitioned from a par 5 to a par 4 and # 2 and # 3 are combined to be one hole.

It doesn't get more gimmickie than that.

I feel that all 27 holes at Ridgewood are a better collection than all 27 at TCC.

As to Huntington Valley, hopefully, I'll get to see it this spring/summer with you and TEPaul, if he can obtain a weekend furlough from HappyDale Farms.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Although Tillinghast is sometimes faulted for designing blase' par fives, the long holes at Ridgewood are uniformly superb, and definitely the highlights of the property.

ps....you'll love HVGC.  

Mike

[mark chalfant]

Patrick ,

you make an excellent point about The "Composite'
chicanery, I also find RCC a better 27 than Brookline.The par threes at RCC such as East #2 and 220yd #6, and the devilish  140yd #8 Center form a compelling set. As for comparing par fives, The CC #11  has a lot of character but number 14 is birdie machine during tourneys. RCC wins in a landslide.

Overall,Im quite fond of short par fours, but I find the quantity of this type at Brookline monotonous overkill. So then 27 holes at  TCC.... historic YES,   worthy of
a special Boston trip to study  CC at Brookline architecture NO,SIR !


for those serious about  Boston's most significant golf designs seek out...........

Salem
Myopia
Essex County  by Ross
Boston  GC
Winchester

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