Ridgewood (AWT) in paramus nj

[mark chalfant]

2 questions:

Is the Center course at this  27 hole Tillinghast design the most  interesting in terms of routing, variety,and terrain ? If you had the choice for a Ridgewood nine to play day after day, would you choose the East or Center ?

Despite its charming clubhouse and tournament pedigree is Ridgewood  so unique in its golf course, architecture that you would turn down an invitation for 36 holes at Somerset Hills, or Baltimore CC, or Forsgate,to play 36 holes Ridgewood instead ?

thanks

[AndrewB]

Mark, I hadn't thought of it before but, yes, Center does have the most elevation change and varied terrain.

Unfortunately I can't give you real answers to your questions since I'm far too biased.  The three nines are all excellent, but East has always and probably will always be my favorite.  When I was learning to play, the par three second was my first short par four and later became the first green I ever reached in regulation.  My father and I would go out there in the evenings and play the hole over and over because it was my best chance at my first par.  I always wanted to go East to have a chance at that, and today that remains my first instinct.

As for your second question, there are probably only a handful of courses in the world I'd choose to play over Ridgewood: too many great memories and good friends I'd miss out on if I went somewhere else.  I'd take a 27 hole day over a 36 hole day, though, playing each hole once.

As I said, I'm biased, but I'll be interested to read what sort of replies you get to this.  For what it's worth, East and West are considered the tougher tests, even if only by the slightest margin.

[Mike Policano]

Mark, I agree with Andrew that Center has the most varied terrain and the most elevation change. However, I think the West 9 has slightly more interesting and varied holes.

As to Somerset, BCC, Forsgate and Ridgewood others like Matt Ward and Pat Mucci should weigh in.

Cheers

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

You asked a series of good questions ...

Ridgewood is a wonderful layout -- all 27 holes. The Center, as others have mentioned, has the most varied terrain.

There are a number of fine holes on all three nines -- with the famed "Five & Dime" hole on the Center Nine. For those unfamiliar with it -- it is a short par-4 -- if memory serves, just beyond 300 yards and all uphill. The hole bends slightly to the right and the green is big enough to handle only the best of approaches with a short club. Much of the green flows from left to right so you don't want to get caught on the far left side.

In regards to routing and hole variety -- I believe one can make a case that each of the three nines is quite entertaining and fun to play. Andrew's response is spot on accurate.

The East has a superb par-5 with the 3rd. The West has a glorious stretch of ending holes with the par-5 8th and the slight dog-leg right 9th.

In regards to the other courses you mentioned it's important to point out that all of them are Tillie courses as well -- save for Forsgate.

Forsgate is a Charles "steamshovel" Banks layout and is really completely different in terms of the earthmoving aspects tied to the creation of that unique layout. The Monroe Township layout has been upgraded in the last few years and is even better than in years past.

BCC has also been upgrade / restored and my previous rounds there was prior to the finished product you see today. I loved the course and would say it's likely a dead tie with Ridgewood for overall variety, land, and routing.

Somerset Hills for me is overrated by a good many people. No doubt the greens are well done -- arguably the best set of Tillie greens in all of the Garden State. The issue is that you have plenty of mundane holes that really don't raise the ante for me. Others will likely feel different. I am a big fan of the 11th hole -- but believe the 12th has gotten more publicity than just about any other hole at the course -- save for the fascinating redan 2nd hole. Somerset Hills is also cursed with an ordinary finish. The par-3 16th is nicely done -- but the downhill 17th and the short and nondescript uphill par-4 18th are disappointments for me.

Overall, the nature of the different courses is a photo-finish between them all.

If I had to choose where to play 36 holes in one day I'd go with Forsgate with Ridgewood a close second and then BCC with Somerset Hills rounding out the group.

[Greg Stebbins]

Like Andrew and Mike, I am extremely biased here.  

While Center has some of the best individual holes on the property (specifically 2 and 6), I don't enjoy it as much as East and West.  I think the reason is that for me, each hole on Center is either a wedge approach or a long iron approach with virtually nothing in between.  Here is a hole-by-hole (yardages approximate from the tips).

1. 375 yards  3 wood and a wedge
2. 570 yards  Drive, layup and wedge
3. 460 yards  Drive, then long iron off downhill lie
4. 540 yards  Drive then go for it with a wood, or lay up to a pitch shot
5. 216 yards  Long iron
6. 289 yards  Long iron and short pitch
7. 380 yards  Drive and wedge
8. 147 yards  short iron
9. 390 yards  Drive and wedge

This extreme of either very long or very short shots on each hole is why I don't think it is as highly regarded as East and West, but for the first timer, Center is probably the most fun to play because of the more varied topography.  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Greg,

I agree.

The 2nd and 3rd holes are fabulous and 6 is quite unique, but as a complete 9 I'd favor both East and West, with the West getting the nod as my favorite.

I think RCC is one of the most underrated courses in the area.

I think that's because Baltusrol, Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Somerset and Bethpage are in the same general neighborhood and many don't want to overload their "favorites" list with another AWT course.

The greens at RCC tend to be smaller than their peers.

I also believe that RCC hasn't been subjected to constant tinkering, and as such, remains as a strong AWT design

For years RCC was a spring/fall golf course.
However, since the tree removal program the condition of the course during the summer has improved dramatically.

I believe that RCC has the best set of par 5's of all of the AWT courses I've played.

I also think that the putting surfaces enjoy good contours and slopes.

Just because Andrew, Greg and Mike admit to a bias, doesn't mean that their assessments aren't on the money.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The Center has the best short hole as Matt Ward pointed out.  The Met Open was last contested on the East and West nines--certainly the best Tilly 5's.  I will venture to say the best 3's also, though not by much, since the the Center 3's are wonderful.

[David_Madison]

Ridgewood is unique in how all three nines work together. I understand that there have been two potential composite tournament routings hypothesized at Ridgewood incorporating holes from all three nines:

The first utilizes East 1-7, then Center 2-6 (with #4 played as a 500 yd. par-4), then West 4-9. Par-72, 7,365 yards

The second goes Center 1-6 (same with #4 as a par-4), then East 5-7, Center 9, and West 2-9. Par 71, 7,535 yards

Two pretty strong and interesting tests...

[Tom_Doak]

I've only been around Ridgewood once, and it was a long time ago, so my memory of the individual holes is not great.  It's the best 27-hole complex I've ever seen.

I think it is underrated by everybody partly BECAUSE it's 27 holes so it does not quite fit into 18-hole comparisons well.  This oddity might well have kept the "main" course (presumably the West and East nines) off the GOLF DIGEST list.

[Mike Policano]

Tom,

I wonder if the order the nines are played adds to the 27 hole issue.

The course is always rated the East-West combination with 8 West and 9 West serving as 17 and 18 which are excellent finishing holes as noted by Matt Ward.

However, the three nines are always played clockwise; East-Center, Center - West and West - East. So, one doesn't play the East - West configuration that is rated except for some of the Met, state and pro tournaments hosted by the club.

And West-East does not have the same finishing drama that E-W does.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

If Ridgewood is the best 27-hole complex you know, better than Huntingdon Valley CC, it must be worth seeing.  I have an exceptionally high regard for the design and maintenance practices at HVCC and am trying to imagine what about Ridgewood could make it superior in your mind--even though your specific memories are not all that clear.  I hope that one of these days I will get a chance to study it.  I have a standing invitation to visit, I think I'll take my acquaintance up on his invitation based on your recollection.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

If Ridgewood is the best 27-hole complex you know, better than Huntingdon Valley CC, it must be worth seeing.  I have an exceptionally high regard for the design and maintenance practices at HVCC and am trying to imagine what about Ridgewood could make it superior in your mind--even though your specific memories are not all that clear.  I hope that one of these days I will get a chance to study it.  I have a standing invitation to visit, I think I'll take my acquaintance up on his invitation based on your recollection.

Wayne,

Keep in mind that when Tom played Huntingdon Valley - the C-nine hadn't been restored/recovered yet.

[wsmorrison]

I'll try to keep that in mind, Kyle.  

How do you know that Tom hasn't seen the C-nine since it was completed?  He has worked in the Philadelphia area since the C-nine was restored and may have visited since his book was published.

[Kyle Harris]

I'll try to keep that in mind, Kyle.  

How do you know that Tom hasn't seen the C-nine since it was completed?  He has worked in the Philadelphia area since the C-nine was restored and may have visited since his book was published.

I recall a thread I started about kicker mounds with him mentioning that he hadn't seen Huntingdon Valley since then. I used the one on C-8 as an example.

I could be wrong, but I'm on board with you in attempting to find another 27 hole course like HVCC, and I've seen Ridgewood. Ridgewood would be quite worth your time, by the way.

[Justin_Zook]

The Ridgewood Country Club is an amazing place.  I had the unique privilege of interning there on the grounds crew during the bunker restoration project.  While I made virtually no design decisions, there is a peninsula running into the right, greenside bunker on 4 Center that is solely my creation.  And that is my only claim to architectural fame.  

I love the West.  Every hole from 3 on is par excellent.  I love the 7th, 8th and 9th.  My first hole-in-one came at 6th.  The last time I played it, I shot a 39 and was thrilled!  

The Center possesses no bad hole.  The 3rd, 4th and 5th are very strong holes.  Back when I worked there, I believe there were thoughts of building another tee further back, further left on the 3rd, making it play about 480 or so.  The 6th, I believe is 286 yards, with a green that is angled from front left to back right.  It is no wider than 15 feet, although it is probably about 15 yards long.  From the fairway, the green complex looks VERY similar to the 15th at Bethpage Black.  

The East is great too.  The 2nd is a great par 3.  The par 5, 3rd has one of the best green complexes I've seen, in person and in the digital world.  The 6th hole is an outstanding par 3 and the 7th is a killer par 4/easy par 5.  

If I had to play one 9 for the rest of my life, I'd play the West, followed by the Center.  That doesn't say anything bad about the East, but the other 9s, for me, are more stimulating.

Happy New Year GCA!

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne:

As Kyle remembers, I haven't seen the full restoration of the C nine at Huntingdon Valley.  Last time I was there it had been partly done, but not the holes down through the wet area at the bottom.

If it surpasses Ridgewood, it would have to be on the basis of the C nine -- I think the "main 18" at Ridgewood is superior to that of Huntingdon Valley.  But the Middle nine at Ridgewood is a bit shorter (if no less interesting) while the C nine at Huntingdon Valley goes against the grain by being the hardest of the three.

[AndrewB]

Ridgewood is unique in how all three nines work together. I understand that there have been two potential composite tournament routings hypothesized at Ridgewood incorporating holes from all three nines:

The first utilizes East 1-7, then Center 2-6 (with #4 played as a 500 yd. par-4), then West 4-9. Par-72, 7,365 yards

The second goes Center 1-6 (same with #4 as a par-4), then East 5-7, Center 9, and West 2-9. Par 71, 7,535 yards

Two pretty strong and interesting tests...

David, the second composite course you listed is what was used for the 2001 Senior PGA Championship, though 4C was played as a par five.  They had that course setup for play a handful of days in the months leading up to the event and it certainly was a strong test.

I think the "main 18" at Ridgewood ...

Tom Doak, it's interesting to hear you refer to a "main 18" at Ridgewood.  In my experience the membership doesn't think of the course that way at all: there are 27 holes and all of the nines are thought of as their own course.  They are all so close to one another in quality that selecting just two for a main course would be missing something.  As can be seen from the replies to this thread, everyone has their personal preferences, but all are worthy of play at any time.  The notion of a "main 18" is only necessary to fit into the mold for hosting tournaments or silly rankings.

I actually have suggested that the club championship be 27 hole matches the whole way through, rather than rounds of 18 (with rotating starting courses) until the finals where you play West-East, then Center-West.  West does have the best set of closing holes to finish a tournament on, which is why it gets the nod of being played twice in the finals I believe.

[AndrewB]

Here are the nines that were used for some of the tournaments held at Ridgewood over the years.  It shows that West is used the most, East next, then Center third.

1935 Ryder Cup:  all three nines
1957 US Senior Amateur:  West-East (according to Dr. Quirin's club history; USGA website claims Center-West)
1974 US Amateur:  East-West
1981 LPGA Coca-Cola Classic:  Center-East
1990 US Senior Open:  Center-West
2001 Senior PGA Championship:  Composite course mentioned above

1960 Met Open: West-East
1970 Met Open: West-Center
1994 Met Open: East-West

1938 Met Amateur: West-East (West-East, Center-West for final match)
1985 Met Amateur: East-West
2000 Met Amateur: East-West (finals shortened to 18 because of rain and played West-East because West was ready for play before East)

1937 NJ Amateur: East-Center (finals used all three nines, starting on East)
1960 NJ Amateur: Center-West
1966 NJ Amateur: West was used (that's all the information available)

2003 NJ Open: East-West

2001 NJ Women's Amateur: Center-West

[David_Madison]

Andrew,

When the composite lay-out was used for the Senior PGA, how long was the course? I assume it wasn't set at its full potential length. Has it ever been set at the full 7500 yards/par -71 for play by non-senior pros, and if so, how did the course hold up?

I used to play/caddie there in the early 70's, when I was in high school. I seem to remember it being a bit rougher, with a more pronounced Sahara area on the first par-5 on East, and more areas that you'd be just dead within the interior of the course (left off the tee on West #5). You also had to work the ball off the tee a lot more because of the trees, and there were a number of holes where their canopies almost seemed to meet. The selective tree removal has done wonders.

[AndrewB]

David,

My program from the Senior PGA Championship confirms the yardages listed on this site, which adds up to 6,904 yards.  The yardages listed in the yardage book that the players used are slightly different, but add up to 6,913 so it's essentially the same.  That's the only tournament that has been held on any composite course at Ridgewood, to my knowledge.

Where are you getting the 7,500 number from?  Even on the most recent scorecard I can find that routing from the back tees is 7,139.  I know a few new tees have been added, but not nearly that much.

[David_Madison]

Andrew,

You're right about the second composite. I added in all of the West nine, not deleting #1. But it always felt like it played longer than most for its stated yardage.

You have a wonderful head pro who really seems to have a handle on what's needed to keep Ridgewood going in the right direction. If you see David, ask him about the greatest bunker shot he's ever seen on #6 Center and please give him my regards.

[AndrewB]

David, that makes more sense.  I feared there were some serious changes in the works that I was not aware of.

I couldn't agree more about David and what he's doing.  I moved out to California a few years ago so I only saw the direction he started to take things, but I was very impressed.  I'm sure Mike or Greg will see him sooner than I will.

[TEPaul]

Wayno:

Do you see what's going on here?

Some of these people, apparently including Tom Doak, are either saying or strongly implying Ridgewood is a better 27 hole course than HVGC. It looks like Doak even said the original course of Ridgewood is better than the A and B nines at HVGC.

Do you realize what this means?

It means they're actually saying that flask-wielding maniac Tillinghast was a better architect than William Flynn!

Are you going to sit over there in Narbeth without taking any retaliatory and hopefully violently venegeful action on this? Are you going to sit over there without even a word? What the hell's the matter with you??

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

If, for some reason, Flynn and Tillinghast got into a real argument and decided to "take it outside", who do you think would win?

I think the small in stature but compact bulldog-like Flynn would take out the taller albeit somewhat loopy arm-waving Tillie in a heart-beat. At the very least, I think our man Flynn would bite Tillie's ankles to a bloody pulp, don't you?

It would be like a vicious little compact terrier against a pusilanimously super-annuated whiffensnooffer!

[wsmorrison]

First of all, Tom, there is no question that Flynn could take any of those classic era architects in a fight.  Devereaux Emmett would run away so as not to get his white suit dirty.  That bantam weight Travis would have eaten his cigar.  Forget about those English architects, they didn't know how to fight.  Some of those Scots might have given him a tough time, but would suely lose to that spark plug gamer, Flynn.  O'l Bill played football in an era of newspaper pads and leather helmets.  Tillinghast had soft hands and wouldn't know what hit him.  Thomas would hide behind his roses.  The only architect that had a chance would be Max Behr.  He was an outstanding athlete and one of the top court tennis players in America.  However, there were only three in total, so that's not saying much.  If Behr used that 5 pound raquet in the fight, it would probably be too close to call.