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Mike Sweeney

USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« on: December 30, 2007, 07:50:36 PM »
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12302007/gossip/pagesix/golf_mecca_says_no_to_usga_682233.htm

Ok so Winged Foot is out. Shinnecock has been quiet. Assuming you need 36 holes or lots of space, that leaves Bethpage, Baltusrol and Trump Bedminster for the USGA in NYC?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 07:51:44 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2007, 07:55:38 PM »
Things are looking good for Erin Hills. ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2007, 07:56:20 PM »
Why do you have to have 36 holes for an Open?  Parking and tents?

Does this mean room rates will increase at the NYAC?   :o  Just kidding!

J_ Crisham

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2007, 08:17:55 PM »
Steve, Are you serious about Erin Hills holding an Open? After playing this summer I found it to be quirky at best and just the type of course the tour players might not like given the blind tee shots they often complain about. For my money bring it back to Olympia Fields or what about Milwaukee CC? I've played 9 different courses that have hosted an Open and I wasn't that awed by what I saw at EH .I wouldn't even place it in the top 5 in WI.

Garland Bayley

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Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2007, 08:22:57 PM »
Attention USGA,

Portland has two 36 hole complexes where major championships have been held, plus a 36 hole complex where the APL has been held. We await your call!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sam Morrow

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2007, 08:32:09 PM »
Kyle is out of town so I will say it for him.

Champions has 36 holes. (Meltdown in 3.2.1...)

John Kirk

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2007, 10:53:02 PM »
New York City?  Nobody wants it?

Sebonack in 2015.

Matt_Ward

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2007, 11:24:27 PM »
Have to wonder if WF gave the USGA the brush if the PGA decides to make a return visit to The Foot sometime down the line. The '97 event wasn't exactly a big time money winner and tickets didn't really sell out until just prior to the event, if memory serves. The PGA was smart to latch onto WF in '97 and clearly the club was interested in returning to the spotlight with the last prior major to that being the '84 US Open.

Can't see the USGA going with only two metro NYC
locations -- Bethpage Black & Shinnecock Hills -- assuming, of course, that the Southampton gem is still interested. Given the fact that SH has held Opens every nine years the gap that exists now makes me wonder if the course has gotten over what happened with the '04 event.

Baltusrol and Trump National have to be smiling. I would not rule out the possibility of a Liberty National jumping into the mixture -- although the site doesn't have an extra 18 and given its involvement with the Barclays forthcoming. It would not surprise me if Bethpage Black returns again given its profitability and the turnout that took place with the '02 event. The '09 event could very well determine that and much more.

Personally, I'd like to see Shinnecock return but given the nature of how relationships can ebb and flow who knows for sure.  If Shinnecock is out -- Sebonack would make for an attractive alternative.


Sam Morrow

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2007, 11:25:58 PM »
Call me crazy but what about Westchester?

Matt_Ward

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2007, 11:28:08 PM »
Sam:

Nice idea but the club is ending its relationship with the Barclays after this year and I don't see the club going that route.

The course has the facilities but the likely involvement with the USGA would likely mean a major transformation of the course that has hosted the Westchester Classic so well for so many years.

Sam Morrow

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2007, 11:31:14 PM »
Sam:

Nice idea but the club is ending its relationship with the Barclays after this year and I don't see the club going that route.

The course has the facilities but the likely involvement with the USGA would likely mean a major transformation of the course that has hosted the Westchester Classic so well for so many years.

Thanks Matt, I've never been there but always enjoyed the course. I also have a novel, maybe even crazy theory that every other open doesn't need to be in New York. ;D

Matt_Ward

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2007, 11:39:31 PM »
Sam:

The NYC metro area is within range of 20 million people (within 75 miles of Times Square.

Add the fact that a number of stellar courses are within that area and it's easy to see why the USGA enjoys the locale.

No doubt the USGA could hold the Open in just about any state -- save for the extreme southeast because of time of year -- and it would still be a sellout.

One other things to keep in mind -- I would not be surprised to see Oakmont come back into the scene with the 2015 event either.

Chris Cupit

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Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2007, 11:48:02 PM »
Sam:


No doubt the USGA could hold the Open in just about any state -- save for the extreme southeast because of time of year -- and it would still be a sellout.



the extreme Se has hosted the PGA in August at times (Atlanta).  Bent grass is far healthier and stronger in June than August--why not the SE?......  

Other than the fact that there are few, if any, great courses with the necessary facilities down here to host a US Open!!

Sam Morrow

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2007, 11:48:17 PM »
Sam:

The NYC metro area is within range of 20 million people (within 75 miles of Times Square.

Add the fact that a number of stellar courses are within that area and it's easy to see why the USGA enjoys the locale.

No doubt the USGA could hold the Open in just about any state -- save for the extreme southeast because of time of year -- and it would still be a sellout.

One other things to keep in mind -- I would not be surprised to see Oakmont come back into the scene with the 2015 event either.

I agree with the demographics but if the USGA uses that same logic they need to be in Southern California far more often.

BTW we need more Oakmont.

Matt_Ward

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2007, 12:00:17 AM »
Chris:

The PGA Championship won by Larry Nelson at PGA National was a dud -- both in terms of the actual event and the $$ lost.

The Atlanta area could very well be in the mix -- but with the Players Event being played there regularly I don't see the USGA invading that turf -- possibly going to East Lake when the PGA Tour isn't using the venue is a possibility.

No doubt Pinehurst #2 is now a fixture. When you look at the other major cities and the best courses in those areas I don't see the logical step that says it's going to happen.

Sam:

Your desire will be answered by what takes place at Torrey Pines this June. The Bay Area is always on the radar screen with Olympic and maybe even Harding Park -- but SoCal is limited with what courses could host the event between Diego and LA.

Keep in mind this - the PGA of America was quite shrewd in locking down plenty of key midwest sites and I don't see the USGA looking to play second fiddle with their showcase event.


Sam Morrow

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2007, 12:03:09 AM »
Chris:

The PGA Championship won by Larry Nelson at PGA National was a dud -- both in terms of the actual event and the $$ lost.

The Atlanta area could very well be in the mix -- but with the Players Event being played there regularly I don't see the USGA invading that turf -- possibly going to East Lake when the PGA Tour isn't using the venue is a possibility.

No doubt Pinehurst #2 is now a fixture. When you look at the other major cities and the best courses in those areas I don't see the logical step that says it's going to happen.

Sam:

Your desire will be answered by what takes place at Torrey Pines this June. The Bay Area is always on the radar screen with Olympic and maybe even Harding Park -- but SoCal is limited with what courses could host the event between Diego and LA.

Keep in mind this - the PGA of America was quite shrewd in locking down plenty of key midwest sites and I don't see the USGA looking to play second fiddle with their showcase event.



It just irks me that the USGA doesn't do a better job of bringing the Open to all of America. I'd like to have my voice matter but as a great teacher once said I can't be a USGA Exec because I don't have dandruff or a blue blazer.

Mike Sweeney

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2007, 07:42:33 AM »
If Shinnecock is out -- Sebonack would make for an attractive alternative.



Despite being only 1 mile away, the logistics to get 35,000 people back in that corner property with only 1 entrance would be challenging for the traffic engineers.

I personally think many of the old private courses may start to end in 2013 at Merion.

Pinehurst, Pebble, Bethpage and Torrey will become the new anchors.

Steve Lapper

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2007, 07:42:44 AM »
Matt:

   Shinnecock has told the USGA it isn't interested right now (especially for the lower fee the USGA is proposing). We both agree it is one of the most attractive sites, but the club's powers-that-be are still reeling from their last debacle and are hardly eager to subject themselves to similar displacement without a greater reward.

   The 1997 PGA at WF was a better success than you might think. The TV viewership increased 19% over previous years (largest jump ever)and served to finally bring the PGA into the nationwide media  spotlight of similar proportions with the other majors. Interestingly, not until the final Sunday of 2000 at Valhalla and the last two days of  2004 at Whistling Straights did the TV #'s rival again. While grounds tickets sales might have lagged, traditionally they always have and they really aren't the most important economic engine for the PGA model.. The recent PGA at Baltusrol was no different as tickets were for sale just up to event time. August is inferior to June for on-site visitations (competitive with people's travel & vacation plans).
     I agree that Baltusrol and Trump can't be upset with this news, yet as for Sebonack or Liberty National, I'd be shocked if either get ANY kind of serious consideration. Between their relative youth, super-high membership fees, lack of both site infrastructure area and on-course viewing spacing, neither of these candidates make enough sense for the blue blazers. I really like Sebonack and it's certainly tough enough, but it would take very long odds to overcome the multiple shortcomings of this venue. Liberty would love it, but would the USGA like to defend the views from anything other than the three holes that highlight the Statue of Liberty and Manhattan skyline, the big, ugly condos, and the bordering waste areas?
  Trump was rumored (in GW a few weeks back) to be negotiating with the USGA for an Open and their Bedminster site is a near perfect fit from multiple perspectives (RR, auto parking, space, viewing lanes, and almost every other infrastructure need)....who knows?
  I agree Oakmont may well become a more active venue in the future. but that said, the USGA wants very much to put the Open closer to the New York/Boston/Philadelphia Corridor. The Northeast is still the nation's largest confluence of $$ and great golf and that remains an important economic, demographic and prestige point for the folks from Far Hills.

Sam:

   The USGA goes where the people and $$ are. They also count on on-course attendance proceeds and ancillary revenues from merchandise sales to make their # goals. If they regularly held this in SoCal, they'd  risk failure on many of those counts. Golf fans have traditionally seemed too busy enjoying the beach and would likely shy away from the traffic nightmares that a site like Riveria suggests. LACC isn't interested. This year's experiment at Torrey Pines will surely help shape the USGA's opinion of SoCal, but it will have to be a huge success to earn a return selection.

   The Open may well belong in an ideal world to the the entire country, but for the blue-bloods in Far Hills, the Open's revenues are the lifeblood of their organization and they won't stray too far from the existing formula for fear of tampering with success.

  What is most interesting here, and should be discussed further, is the
fact that the USGA is offering LESS $$ to the host club than in the past. That is a key strategy that may, or may not, backfire on them. Hosting a Open is a complex issue for any private club and I'm not sure the USGA's new negotiating tactic won't flat-out alienate most of the candidates. It may also just tee-up the ball for the likes of the Donald and other very wealthy owners to step in as they are far more interested in the prestige than the profits. All very interesting to me.
 

« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 08:27:46 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Ray Richard

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2007, 07:45:27 AM »
The USGA should go up the road and promote a Bethpage type restoration of Ponkapoag-a 36 hole complex 10 miles south of Boston. Course number 1 is a Ross design that could use an Oakmont type tree removal program. Course 2 would be a great parking and staging area-it also borders a major highway.

nandoal

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2007, 09:00:52 AM »
Couldn't agree with you more. I think 2015 is the earliest Oakmont could return. Well I may be biased since I had a 1 1/2 block walk to the gate.  But I could use a little more Oakmont, and a little less Pinehurst #2.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 09:02:43 AM by Allan_Hernandez »

Steve Lapper

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Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2007, 09:15:31 AM »
The USGA should go up the road and promote a Bethpage type restoration of Ponkapoag-a 36 hole complex 10 miles south of Boston. Course number 1 is a Ross design that could use an Oakmont type tree removal program. Course 2 would be a great parking and staging area-it also borders a major highway.

Ray:

   That sounds like a great idea! Boston fans have always come out in droves for most any live sports event. The "Bethpage" model, while still unique to the Black course's existing degree of excellence makes a ton of sense for the "good of the game." Unfortunately, not many of those USGA Executive Committee members really believe in that.  Too bad, it sounds like a winner to me.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2007, 09:20:14 AM »
Jack,

Re: Erin Hills

In case you haven't been following the news, the USGA awarded the 2008 U.S. Women’s Amateur Public Links to EH BEFORE the course opened. The course is big, public and in the Mid- West. David Fay and Mike Davis and the Executive Board have been there. Probably not in 2015 but sometime in future, as private clubs(except for Trump) get tired of the USGA taking over their club for less money,an Open could appear at EH, notwithstanding the merits or lack therof of the course.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2007, 09:38:49 AM »
I'm not sure Shinnecock has taken themselves out of the realm of possibility at this point but they may have. It seems like one of Shinnecock's unique little issues is they just don't like shutting their members off the course too long before an Open.

It seems like one of the new big factors, at least in and around the NYC metro area is that the USGA and the PGA just don't want to ever be in there in the same year. That kind of thing is apparently just not good for business.

But I'm sure it's true to say that some clubs just love the prospect of a US Open. Those in the know at Oakmont seem to say they'd take the Open any time while other of the tradtional Open courses probably fall in somewhere down the ladder on that kind of thing.

It has not escaped my notice that there has been some disruption amongst the Merion membership with the prospect of an Open and a few other big USGA events but the club is into it now and it's going to happen.

I haven't heard anything about it on the horizon and despite what Matt Ward said about the difficutly of the southeast for an Open I think it would be madness for the USGA not to at least consider, at some point, taking the US Open to the world's greatest hidden gem----Fernandina Beach Municipal Golf Course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 09:41:01 AM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2007, 10:11:42 AM »
I love the USGA, and what they try to do but I really hated to hear what went on at Winged Foot in preparation for the Open logistics that year and to see what went on at Shinnecock for that events course presentation...and I'm not talking about the 7th green...
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 10:12:12 AM by JES II »

Garland Bayley

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Re:USGA: Ok so we need a new 36 hole course in NYC....
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2007, 10:30:55 AM »
Well, if the USGA is going away from privates to publics, have I got a deal for them!

Chambers Bay

The best weather in the country in June. Passenger rail access. Huge area for tents parking etc. Probably the best municipally owned course on the west coast. Large golf starved population base. No huge upgrade like was necessary for Bethpage Black. And best scenic views.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne