[Joe Bausch]

Mike, basically what Joe Bunker said is as follows:

"Seaview is now being upholstered Donald Ross...(he) has plotted the course for traps and bunkers..."

[Phil_the_Author]

Getting back to Merion, in December 1916 in the American Golfer Tilly wrote:

"Merion continues the improvements, which were started before the Amateur championship. During that championship some suggestions were made by the wisest of visiting contestants and their observations did not fall on unheeding ears..."

This inspires a few questions:

1- What were these changes?
2- Who were these "wisest of visiting contestants" who made them?
3- Were others made after this date a resultof these wise "suggestions?"

[Sean_A]

Mike, basically what Joe Bunker said is as follows:

"Seaview is now being upholstered Donald Ross...(he) has plotted the course for traps and bunkers..."

Joe

These days, a trap and a bunker are meant to be the same thing - though they shouldn't.  What was the difference between the two 90 years ago?

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Not going to get involved with the main part of this debate, but has anyone noticed anything of interest by reading the article (#97) Joe posted on Seaview dated May 1915.

The date of the article was 2nd May 1915 and by fall that year the course will be finished. So by 1915 the design construction process was still in the region of 3-4 months. No much seems to have changed since Old Tom’s days. This is approx the same time North Berwick took to extend their course in 1877 to a full 18 holes & also Braid Hills, to name but two. Also three times quicker that the Barry Course (Panmure GC).

Just an observation – I thought an very interesting one compared how some seem to have minimised the early designers efforts yet the duration to produce a course in the 20th Century seems remarkable similar to that of the 19th Century.

Melvyn

[BCrosby]

Melvyn -

Joe Houghton spent years writing a novel. It wasn't very good and is now deservedly forgotten.

Time and effort are neither necessary nor sufficient to successful work product.

There are many arguments you might use to make your case for the quality of Victorian designs. But the fact that Victorian designers spent considerable time and effort on their courses is not one of those arguments.

Bob

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bob

I believe it to be relevant based upon my research, but you have the right to disagree. I think we keep coming back to our opinions of what exactly the 19th Century guys actually did – but that’s not for this topic.

Melvyn

[Mike_Cirba]

In Dec 1914 Wilson resigned as chairman of the Merion green committee citing the need to give more time to his primary business. 

Despite those concerns, in Jan 1915 Robert Lesley appointed him to the committee that was charged with design and construction of the city's first public course at Cobbs Creek, which could honestly be characterized as GAPs number one strategic initiative at the time.

Although Ross was ostensibly brought to Seaview to toughen it, he clearly must have liked much of what he saw there, because his proposed changes were mostly minor tweaks and subtle revisions as I'll outline later this week.

Also, a number of Ross's proposals, such as adding a second green to the 8th and then connecting them with a swale mowed as connecting greenspace were never implemented.

[Mike_Cirba]

PS Tom...I would love to read those letters this wonter,

PPS Phil..I don't know of any additional substantive changes made to Merion til 1924.

[TEPaul]

"The date of the article was 2nd May 1915 and by fall that year the course will be finished. So by 1915 the design construction process was still in the region of 3-4 months. No much seems to have changed since Old Tom’s days. This is approx the same time North Berwick took to extend their course in 1877 to a full 18 holes & also Braid Hills, to name but two. Also three times quicker that the Barry Course (Panmure GC).

Just an observation – I thought an very interesting one compared how some seem to have minimised the early designers efforts yet the duration to produce a course in the 20th Century seems remarkable similar to that of the 19th Century."


Melvyn:

You need to know something about what you said regarding that May 2, 1915 newspaper article---eg it said the course would be finished in the fall. That kind of thing cannot be taken as a fact that the course was finished in the fall. There are all kinds of newspaper articles from particularly this area (Philadelphia) from that time that said the same things about various courses----eg they would be finished by this or that date, but the fact is they weren't as was the case with both Merion and Pine Valley. In both cases the construction of architecture went on for a number of years after those articles.

And we can even provide some information contained in letters (from the likes of Wilson) that states that that is a rather ideal way to go about it if the opportunity is provided to take that amount of time! And of course the next question might be what was it that led some of them to feel that way----was it that they could see the earlier rapid work on courses did not provide a desired result?

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

You may not know of any substantive changes, but evidently some work was done and changes did happen. It is probably on the level of adding and/or subtracting bunkers or maybe some slight tee adjustments.

Still, it would be interesting if it could be identified as well as those responsible for the suggestions.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Or Tom

That you guys over there kept changing your minds. But there you go again yet again totally ignoring the fact that not all our courses pre 1900 were quickly built.

Any relation to Tom Simpson?

Melvyn

PS I'm leaving this topic until you can confirm who designed Merion
Wilson, yes I know that name from somewhere, just can't quite remember, was it something to do with coping our ideas on layout of holes on our courses or have I got it wrong again, don't remember any comments from Simpson though, surprising having already criticised their original designers. Oh well, I'll leave you with that one to figure out. 

[TEPaul]

"Or Tom
That you guys over there kept changing your minds. But there you go again yet again totally ignoring the fact that not all our courses pre 1900 were quickly built."


Melvyn:

What I'm interested in is determining what-all those men who made those remarks contained in post #19 were talking about (Simpson seems to so negatively effect you perhaps he should be left out of this).

All you've done is just completely dismiss what they all said and you've apparently just chalked it all up to self promotion and rubbish, nothing more. I suspect it was a whole lot more than just that in reality

If this is as far as the discussion or the looking into the realities of much of the architecture of that time is going to go I really don't want to pursue the subject and I'm sorry for Dan Hermann that his interesting question got dismissed and side-tracked as it did, even if this isn't the same thread----but it has veered to the same subject between us.

[Mike_Cirba]

In a Joe Bunker article that did not show in my initial searches, is this about Ross and Seaview from the May 2, 1915 issue of the Philadelphia Inquirer:

The Seaview course was originally supposed to open in early 1914.   In fact, in December 1913 Tillinghast reported;

"The new Sea View course,at Absecon is coming on beautifully. The fall  seeding has been blessed with fortunate weather condition and greens and fairways already are beautifullygreen. Here is another course that I must inspect carefully before attempting a critical review (like Merion in early 1913, comments mine)."

Mr. Clarence H. Geist, the president, announces plans for a palatial club house, a feature which golfers at the Atlantic City shore will appreciate."

However, exactly one year later, Tilinghast again reported;

"The new course at Sea View Club is coming along beautifully and Mr. C.H. Geist announces that there will be a formal opening sometime soon after the holidays and without doubt the occasion will be a memorable one."

"Mr. Geist was seriously indisposed for nearly five weeks but as soon as his physician permitted him to leave the house he went immediately to the club and began preparations for this opening."

A month later, Tillinghast reported;

"Mr. Clarence H. Geist, president of the Seaview Golf Club, at Absecon,N. J., likes to do things on a generous scale. He announces a winter tournament for the opening of the new course, and the trophy which the president offers for the first flight is an unusually fine one. The tournament, a strictly invitation event, is scheduled to begin on Monday, January 11, and it continues through four days. But on the preceding Saturday, January 9, the course really will be formally opened by the playing of a four-ball match over thirty-six holes."

The calibre of the quartette leaves nothing to be desired.  Mr. Charles ("Chick") Evans, Jr., is to be partnered by National Champion Mr. Francis Ouimet and this formidable pair will be opposed by Mr. Jerome D. Travers and Mr. Oswald Kirkby. I am reliably informed that the only doubtful participant is Mr. Ouimet, but it is to be hoped that he can arrange to be present for this match, which would be worth going miles to see."

"Mr. Boyd Carrigan, Seaview's general manager, tells me that greenkeeper William Connellan will have the course in very fine condition, and that the putting greens will be a revelation to those who have not already seen them.  They are excellent."

"Doubtless the announcement of a Northern tournament at such a late date will surprise many readers, but the Jersey coast really provides surprisingly good golf throughout the winter months.  Philadelphia golfers have long been in the habit of journeying to Atlantic City for golf, when the conditions elsewhere were quite impossible.  Frequently when Phila-delphia has inches of snow covering the streets, Atlantic City is as dry as a bone, and very comfortably mild too.  To be sure, there are days when the wind asserts itself, but on the whole there is little fault to be found with the weather."

"The Seaview men declare that these winter tournaments will be very popular when players generally begin to appreciate the favorable weather conditions which usually exist.  However, there was one occasion, some years back, when Fate was not kind.  The writer, going frequently to Northfield in those days, was very keen about this comfortable winter golf, and more than once had attempted to induce some of his Metropolitan friends to try it.  Finally persistancy was rewarded and a telegram announced that Mr. Archie Graham and Mr. Charles Seeley would arrive at "the shore" on the evening train.  It was Washington's Birthday and it is doubtful if a colder night ever had closed down on a day dedicated to the
Father of His Country.  Just before dark a small blizzard came howling down the boardwalk and nearly everyone sought the fireplaces.  A bus
rumbled up to the hotel and as the door opened a bellboy was blown in by the force of the gale.  He carried two golf bags, and they were frozen stiff as boards.  Then came two ulsters, Mr. Seeley was in one, Mr. Graham in the other.  They regarded me sorrowfully, indeed there seemed to be just a suggestion of menace in their countenances, which fact was not altogether pleasing."

""Nice warm little spot!" observed one. "I suppose you would call it about right for a dip in the surf,— wouldn't you?"  And during the entire evening the batteries of irony and ridicule were actively shelling my trenches Certainly it was no fault of mine when they picked out the most frigid
day of the winter to test my story.  We never got anywhere near the golf
course."

"But such days really are exceptions, and it is more than probable that the
Seaview January tournament will be a mighty pleasant one. The new club
house is a marvel.  Everything is included in the arrangements and appointments.  We will attempt some description next month, at which time
the January tournament will be reviewed."

[Mike_Cirba]

In February 1915, Tillinghast reported;

"When the Seaview Golf Club, Absecon, New Jersey, sent out invitations for a four days' tournament, beginning January 11th, golfers rubbed their eyes in astonishment a n d looked the second t i m e to see if they had r e a d aright. The very audacity of the proposal was astounding. Who had ever heard of such an ambitious tournament in the North during midwinter?"

"It was well-known t h a t the New Jersey courses along the sea c o a s t offered very decent g o l f throughout the winter, but e v e r y now and then of course bad days would come along when play would be most uncomfortable.  But Seaview proposed not only to gamble on four days of good weather, but in reality six, for the formal opening of the club was scheduled for the preceding Saturday.  Mr. Clarence H. Geist, President of
the new organization, in his characteristic, decisive way, determined that the club should be opened at this time, and opened it was without frigid weather interfering, although a severe rain storm on Tuesday night made its appearance. Coming in from the sea the storm shook the houses to their very foundations and the rain fell in torrents until it seemed that it would render any course unplayable. In the morning the tide was well up over the meadows and around the sixth green and the seventh teeing ground, but so perfectly did the course drain, that play on all other holes was unhampered, and in the afternoon the entire course was playable in its entirety."

"As an opening event on Saturday a four ball match was scheduled, — Mr. Jerome D. Travers and Mr. Oswald Kirkby w e r e to oppose Mr. Charles Evans, Jr., and Mr. William C Fownes, Jr., but the last named was unable to be present and his place was taken by M r . Cameron B . Buxton.  A special train from Philadelphia brought over five hundred people to Absecon, and at half past one it was estimated that over eight hundred were in the clubhouse, waiting for the match to begin.  Mr. A. W. Tillinghast of Philadelphia acted as referee."

"At the start the players showed the effects of their lack of practice, but after a few holes they were getting into the ball with much of their accustomed vigor. As the match came to the seventeenth hole, all even, the gallery became keenly interested. Mr. Evans had been playing his strokes crisply, but for the most part putting rather erratically, as were the others, although the greens were in fine condition. On the short thirteenth it seemed as though the Westerner would snatch a hole for his side when
he played a fine pitch within a dozen feet of the cup, but Mr. Travers, true to tradition, followed with one just inside and both barely missed their twos.  Mr. Evans had a longish putt on the seventeenth green for a half, but he holed it bravely.  After the drives on the long eighteenth each one of the four under-clubbed with his second although a half in par figures resulted."

"Both Mr. Evans and Mr. Travers put their second shots on the nineteenth green and Mr. Evans, from the very edge of the green elected to use a lofted club for his approach putt. His ball hit the back of the cup with considerable speed and came to rest about eighteen inches on the far side.
Mr. Travers also hit the back of the cup with his approach putt and an almost similar putt presented itself to each man, but " Chick" was slightly away and he missed a very easy one by pulling it slightly, and then "Jerry"
with great deliberation ended the match by holing his putt.  Mr. Evans was out in 43 and back in 38 with an approximated 7 on the second hole, where he got into difficulty when he pitched his third from the road over the green. 

"Mr. Buxton assisted on two holes, the second where he got a 6 and the eleventh, where he holed a long putt for a two. The best ball of the Metropolitan pair was 81, each finding trouble on the eighth hole."


In May of 1915, the same month as the Donald Ross article Joe posted, Tillinghast reported the following three very historically-related events;


"Work has started on the new public course by Cobb's Creek, and another course will be constructed at Torresdale."


National champion Francis Ouimet  spent several days in Philadelphia last month.  He played at Whitemarsh first but he failed to break 80.  However this performance must not be taken seriously for the ability of his fellows was very mediocre and the day could be regarded only as a skylark.  However, on the next day he played at Seaview, where his play was more nearly like that which is expected of a national champion.  There he scored a 73, partnered in a four-ball match by Mr. Hugh I. Wilson and opposed by Mr. C. H. Geist and Wilfrid Reid, the recently arrived pro., formerly of Banstead, England."


"Seaview has called in Donald Ross to build traps, and his ideas, together with those of Wilfrid Reid, should stiffen the Absecon course considerably."

[Mike_Cirba]

It should be noted that the course at Seaview was actually open in 1914 for member play, but Clarence Geist wanted a grand opening, thus his January 1915 tournament.

In October, 1914, a lengthy article appeared in the Philadelphia papers that described the overal philosophy and goal of the course, then a hole by hole description, as well as a routing map.    Those who have played the course may want to check the routing against todays...

[Mike_Cirba]

For comparison purposes, here's an aerial of the course today.   

The routing hasn't changed at all since the course opened in 1914.

[TEPaul]

"As a related aside, I was informed yesterday that Dr. Henry Toulmin, one of the five-member Merion Committee, laid out the first course for the Belmont Cricket Club in 1898, which shortly became known as Aronimink, a club whose first club champion was one Hugh Wilson ."


MikeC:

The original Belmont course was actually laid out by three club members----eg Harriosn Townsend, Dr. J.A. Davis and Dr. H. Toulmin (who later served on Hugh Wilson's Merion committee).

[Mike_Cirba]

Test...







Oh man...I love technology sometimes..   

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

This kind of thing reminds me of a hole by hole master plan (recommended changes) that Ross did for GMGC ten years after the course was built except with ours Ross's recommendations are done by him freehand with fairly detailed textual and diagram instructions. Most were done but not all.

[Mike_Cirba]

[Mike_Cirba]

What I presented above is two examples of the following;

First Image - An October 1914 hole description of the original Hugh Wilson course

Second Image - Drawing by Donald Ross of Proposed Changes

Third Image - Aerial of the hole as it exists today

Fourth Image - Blowup of Ross's Proposed Change Instruction.


If there is interest, over the next week I'll start a hole by hole segment on a new thread, and then will add ground level photos and commentary.

Whaddyathink?

[Mike_Cirba]

Here's an example of what I'm thinking...they won't all be this good. 








From the tee, the strategic play is to skirt the nest of bunkers down the right side.







A drive down the shorter left side is never a good play.



Even if you crush one...



A big drive skirting past the right side bunker leaves this preferred angle.



This tiny pot short right is one of the many whimsical touches at Seaview.



A hidden matching pot behind the right side awaits the poor approach through the green from an oblique angle approaching from the left;



A look from just short of the left-front bunker shows what is a beautifully simple green strategy, masterfully executed.

[Brad Tufts]

I'd say yes, I would be interested in following this along...

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I'm not sure what a hole by hole analysis this way is supposed to prove or could prove. Would it be to try to prove that Wilson actually did more and Ross did less on that course than the club or others recognize or admit to?

If that's the case, if all you have of the way Wilson left it is some newspaper descriptions of the way the holes played or were before Ross ever got there I don't know that this excercise would be worth it for fairly obvious reasons----eg how architecturally detailed could those newspaper descriptions be anyway, not to mention the detail included in Ross's plans and drawings of proposed work to come----eg I doubt he'd be drawing detailed recommended changes to the course that were already on the course or part of it. What would be the point of that?   

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

The news clips provide enough flavor in most cases and the Ross drawings are a combination of as-is along with his suggested changes fully detailed and drawn in.

The aerials and ground photos  show whether those proposed changes were implemented in part or whole.

I think if nothing else it will provide a pretty clear indication of who did what on that course;  the most recent speculation by Ron Whitten was that Wilson did the routing and then Ross did all the bunkering and other feature work.

I'll simply present the evidence and let others make their own determinations.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()