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Jim Nugent

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2007, 12:21:13 AM »
Is that Mauna Kea hole kind of a Redan?  

Looks like much of the green runs away from the tee at an angle, with some bunkers protecting front left.

rchesnut

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2007, 02:49:48 AM »

Mauna Kea is closed for restoration now, according to their website it's due to reopen in fall 2008.  As for whether #3 is a Redan, I recall the green being wider than deep, and the green runs away from the tee a bit at an angle, with bunkering in the front, so it has some aspects of a Redan.  But I think the hole plays a little downhill, and I don't recall the green sloping severely from front to back...as I understand the definition of a Redan hole, I don't think it would quite qualify.  But I'm not an architect, so I'll let those that know correct me on this one.       ???

Adam_Messix

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2007, 09:12:26 AM »
Matt--

I see where you are coming from BUT.....

Are you telling me that seeing a group standing on the tee of a 230 yard par three with the wind against with everyone knowing that they couldn't get there with a cannon (or two) doesn't slow up play on the course.  It's not just at public courses, it's private clubs too.  The saving grace at most privates is that they get less play and the play they get is from people who play the course often.  

I will never forget playing in the MD High School Championship (with a 150 + player field) and seeing four groups tied up on the tee of the 5th hole the U of M, the 235 yard par three.  No one was hitting the green and most of the players couldn't reach it, but they waited as much out of etiquette as anything.  

Personally, I would love to see more long par threes.  But it's easy for me to see a designer and a developer avoid it due to play issues.  For the most part, public course operators want to get play around as quickly as possible, particularly if they are looking for a lot of repeat business.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2007, 11:18:56 AM »
Huckaby's favorite "downhill Redan" at Saddle Creek (resort/semi-private).

Huckaby's Favorite

I am honored.  I think they should re-name the golf hole.  That "redan" name is so overused, don't you think?

 ;)

I do really like this hole, in any case... what made it cool to me is that the ball really can sling from far right to back left... the contours allow for it, it's been firm enough each of the three times I've been there, and it's really fun to watch.

It's a darn tough hole - but doable - and to me cool in that it takes some faith, or knowledge, to play it way right and let it come back.  Many players won't have either, and to me it's fun to use this to one's advantage.

TH

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2007, 11:36:15 AM »
Nice to see everyone ducking my earlier question.... :)

Matt--

I see where you are coming from BUT.....

Are you telling me that seeing a group standing on the tee of a 230 yard par three with the wind against with everyone knowing that they couldn't get there with a cannon (or two) doesn't slow up play on the course.  It's not just at public courses, it's private clubs too.  The saving grace at most privates is that they get less play and the play they get is from people who play the course often.  

I will never forget playing in the MD High School Championship (with a 150 + player field) and seeing four groups tied up on the tee of the 5th hole the U of M, the 235 yard par three.  No one was hitting the green and most of the players couldn't reach it, but they waited as much out of etiquette as anything.  

Personally, I would love to see more long par threes.  But it's easy for me to see a designer and a developer avoid it due to play issues.  For the most part, public course operators want to get play around as quickly as possible, particularly if they are looking for a lot of repeat business.  

There are a lot of reasons for slow play. Having a long par 3 is not terribly high on that list. Even at my lowly home muni, folks are smart enough to wave people up on par 3s when things get crowded.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2007, 12:22:39 PM »
Adam M:

Help me understand something -- what prevents people from waving the group behind them to hit up once all balls from the group in front are on the green.

George P makes a valid point (wow, we do agree here !) regardng slow play. I don't see how long par-3's make any more difference regarding slow play when compared to short par-'s or par-5 holes where the group behind is thinking of reaching the green in two blows.

Slow play can happen on just about any hole depending upon the group involved. In my opinion, 99.99% of slow play happens because of a lack of priority / attention from management. The nature of the hole itself has little real consequence.

Gents:

It's nice to see people throwing examples of long par-3's from 30+ years. As I stated at the BEGINNING of this thread -- for those who don't read such matters -- I stated that the addition of long par-3's from courses I have played over the last 15 years -- particularly the public / resort ones -- have seemed to abandon -- with a few exceptions noted -- of long par-3 holes (225+ yards).

I've played Mauna Kea and really enjoy the two long par-3 holes there -- I personally believe the 3rd is a tad overrated and a poor RTJ attempt to mirror the 16th at CP. Frankly, the 11th there is a world class long par-3 hole and if I had to list such an all-star grouping of holes I have ever played in my life would certainly include that hole among my personal favorites.

As I said before -- it seems the old time architects had no inhibition regarding the involvment of long par-3 holes -- whether they be at private or public.

Archie:

Kudos to you at TD for the two long par-3 holes. I personally like the 3rd but the 16th for whatever reason, I believe, is often underrated as a hole of that type.

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2007, 12:27:50 PM »
Well said, Matt! (Had to take the rare opportunity to say that. :))

I'm changing my position a little - I don't like long par 3s, I love 'em. I do wish there were more of them, just maybe not as many emphasizing long carries, instead emphasizing other aspects of the design.

I'd be excited to see more Oakmont #8s in the public world. Just call 'em par 4s if too many whine.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2007, 12:28:16 PM »
Matt - the hole I cited as my favorite is pretty darn new.

Also re slow play, I do believe also that no particular hole causes such with the exception of the "reachable" par five - that can complicate matters - but in any case that's due to the golfer and how he treats it, not the hole itself.  But mainly I just want to add that I don't think waving up on par threes necessarily makes play go faster - you just shift the wait to the next tee.  No?

TH

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2007, 12:35:54 PM »
Huck, my extremely limited experience is that waving folks up simply smooths out the congestion, rather than having it all concentrated in one place.

My home muni has a par 3 2nd hole that almost always creates a bottleneck. The one advantage of it is that things tend to go relatively smoothly after that. It's almost a natural spacer. When people wave other groups up, it doesn't change the overall time much, it just lessens that one wait, at the cost of maybe a little more wait in other spots.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2007, 12:41:07 PM »
Huck:

You don't shift matters PROVIDED management stays on top of the situation which only a few places I have EVER PLAYED really decides to take consistent and aggressive action.

Take the situation at Mauna Kea -- if groups were waved up when all balls from the group in front are on the green you won't get any real back-up at the next hole because by time the group hitting is in position to play their 2nd shots the group on the green will have plenty of time to arrive at the 4th tee and hit off.

Management allows slow play and when the inmates run the operation is when you get the back-ups (irrespective of the hole type or course type).

Long par-3 holes are really avoided because the vast preponderance of architects have caved in to the public / resort layouts that only want to create a PC type course that does little but generate a merry-go-round for making a quick buck. I get a chuckle out of those who post "exceptions" such as the hole at Arcadia or at Whistling Straits but they are nothing more than the rare exceptions and don't change my mind on what seems to be happening with many more new public / resort layouts.

The long par-3 (or as George P correctly noted can also be considered a short par-4 for those lacking the firepower to get there in one blow) is a major element when the collective nature of par-3's are discussed.

As much as people gush about the short par-3 and short par-4 holes on this site -- it's about time people pay attention to making sure the long par-3 doesn't go the way of the dinosaur. Too often people's admiration of a hole type is based on their wherewithal to play it. I too like short par-4 and par-3 type holes -- I also see the merit of the long par-3 when it is placed in the proper framework of holes and intersects with a land element that really makes it shine.

Kudos to the old time architects -- including RTJ for keeping its role active and important.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2007, 12:43:04 PM »
George:

In my extensive experience (and I'm not saying that to be arrogant, but I have played 35 years of golf, at least 75% of it on crowded public courses), I find that most FEEL like they are going faster if they are waved up, because rather than frustratingly waiting they get to hit a shot... but the net in the end is the same amount of time, as you just catch up to the group again on the next hole.

I've played at courses where they request you DO NOT wave the group up.

I could have this wrong, though....

TH

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2007, 12:49:43 PM »
Matt:

I'd agree that management can make things go faster.

I have just played few, if any, courses where they take these steps.  The inmates do run the asylum, and while I wish that were different, I don't see it changing.

So assuming that is the case - that it's up to the golfers to make this work, or not - I think not waving up works better than waving up.

In any case I have zero axe to grind about the long par three.  If people are using pace of play as reasons NOT to build them, well I'd agree that is short-sighted.

I just meant to comment on waving v. non-waving.

TH


Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -9
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2007, 12:50:09 PM »
Tom, Matt, and all

Interesting comments on long/bottleneck par 3s.  I've run into more than my fair share of these as well.  And my preference would be just to wait on the tee, and get all the waiting done and over with, because I know once its my turn to go that for several holes after the bottleneck, it will play free and clear again.

So true, once can hit up and take it in increments, or you can just wait, take it all at once and be done with it.  I prefer the latter option.

Tim Pitner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2007, 01:24:22 PM »
Matt,

What's your opinion of Bandon Trails #12?  I know you've been critical of the middle holes at BT, but #12 is a very good hole, IMO.  A 230-240 yard par 3 with some interesting ground game options.  

Matt_Ward

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2007, 03:37:01 PM »
Tim:

Before commenting on the situation you specifically asked -- let me state that I am not advocating boring long par-3 holes. Candidly, a boring long par-3 hole is no better than a short boring one.

I also don't believe that long par-3 holes have to follow some predictable manner / style in order to be judged a success. For example, I don't believe long par-3 holes have to have large greens in order to accomodate the shots played. If you look at WFW's 3rd green you find a very small target to hit from 220+ yards. Going long to either side can make the likelihood of a par highly doubtful.

The 12th at BT, in my mind, is simply a matter-of-fact long par-3 hole. I don't see anything that strikes me as being unique. You say it's a good hole -- my reaction would be compared to what other type long par-3 holes that are public in nature? I would rate the example from Arcadia and Whistling Straits as better types of such holes.

I can name a number of other long par-3 holes that are a bit more challenging and provide a good bit more from the design meter in terms of strategic implications.

No doubt you like the hole so what I think of it will not matter to you or others. I've always maintained that the middle stretch of holes at BT is merely ordinary -- have another name attached to the course rather then C&C and more people would likely say the same thing, in my mind.

Tim Pitner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2007, 05:00:07 PM »
Matt,

While Bandon Trails #12 is not as dramatic as some of the other holes mentioned here, I think you underrate it.  From sharing land with #13 to the humps and bumps in the fairway allowing for some cool run-up shots, I see BT #12 as offering some unique qualities.  I wouldn't rate it as one of the top holes at BT, but it's very far from boring.  

BTW, Bandon Trails is the only C&C course I've played so I don't have any bias in their favor other than the positive impressions I have of BT.  

Also, I haven't heard your thoughts on Pacific Dunes #10 and #17.  I know they don't meet your yardage cut-off but, into the wind, they can play just as long so why exclude them from consideration?  

JohnV

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2007, 05:09:57 PM »
Matt,

While I didn't get to play Bandon Trails when I was there this year, I did get to watch 6 good players take it on as I refereed their groups at the US Mid-Am.  I think it is a very good hole that can bring interesting challenges to the better player while giving the lesser one a chance for a reasonable bogey and possible par.

The bunker that is well short of the green gives a great optical illusion, appearing much closer and more in play than it is.  The ridge/mound right of the green definitely gives players who bail out towards 13 fits.  The green looked to have a lot of internal movement as I recall.

All in all, I found it a very interesting hole and one I would like to play.

Jordan Wall

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2007, 05:38:02 PM »
Matt,

If you were the average length hitter that Tom Doak mentioned needs a wood to make the carry at Arcadia Bluffs, would you be out searching for long par 3s?

Answer what you may, but methinks not.


Garland,

I dont want to speak for Matt, but since I have the opinion on long par three as him, I dont mind answering this question.

The hole at Arcadia Bluffs is a very odd example of a long par three.  I dont think it would be pushing it to say that the majority of people who have played the course love the hole.  I think it is a great looking hole.  However, it seems that is about all the hole has to offer.  There is a key element to long par threes missing in the hole, and that is an alternate entrance to the green.  The hole has no strategy.  Fly it on the green, or just miss the green.

So, this hole would be a bad example.

BUT, I think an average hitter would find much delight in seeing a well struck ball land 20 or 30 yards shorts of a long hole (230ish) and funnel right toward the green.  If more long par threes offered an option like that, then the average hitter would enjoy longer par threes.  Think something like Chambers Bay #9, for something we've both seen -- what mid length player wouldn't enjoy his 4-iron from the back tees funneling down that slope and resting close to the pin?

Jordan,

Are you daft? My post had nothing to do with the par 3 at Acadia. Methinks you need to retake AP English w/o your computer at hand so you can't blow it off and read this website during class.
 >:(

Apparently I am Garland.

And I'm on break.

I still think the last part of what I said answered your question just fine, dont know why the hissy fit is needed.

Garland Bayley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2007, 06:56:31 PM »
Jordan,

You know me, I'm always in a hissy fit. Hitting a four iron from the back tee for a mid range hitter is not something that is done on a long par 3 of the type being discussed here!

All,

Here's the deal folks. On a typical course with four par threes, there are 14 holes where driving is being examined. Why waste one or more of your par threes to examine hitting driver or 3 wood yet again? Huge waste of time to me and Tilly! Causes automatic lowering of the rating of the course. Get over this silly idea that Matt seems to have that long par threes are important.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 20
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2007, 07:15:51 PM »
Garland:

There are two sides to that argument; the converse is that good players rarely are required to hit an approach shot to a green with a long club, and the par-3's are about the only place where we can require a long hitter to do so.

But, I understand your side of the argument as well.

In the end, I prefer to rate courses on the holes that they have, instead of the holes they don't.  Matt is right that a lot of architects fail to consider the possibilities of long par-3 holes, but always having one as part of a "formula" for a good course is not necessarily the right answer.

Lou_Duran

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2007, 07:36:06 PM »
Tom Doak,

Did you consider building a long par 3 at Stone Eagle?  Did you opt not to because of the membership type, site characteristics, or another reason?

I like a long, muscular par 3.  # 5 at Scarlet was such a hole in the 1970s.  The redan-like # 6 at Pine Dunes resort in Texas is another (though I can do without the somewhat hidden lake short and left).  Your own # 16 at Rawls is very difficult typically playing against and across the prevailing wind.   Riviera's #4, a Redan, would also be a favorite if the run-up shot from the right side actually ran-up and worked toward the hole.

Garland Bayley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2007, 07:39:46 PM »
Tom,

I guess I have to adjust my statement. After review, I now believe Matt's original post was not about holes that require driver/3 wood. It is all those who jumped on the bandwagon with examples of holes that required driver/3 wood that I am taking aim at.

Consider Ran's reivew of the 8th at Oakmont.
"The green and its contours are (relatively speaking given that the greens often stimp above 13!) among the more modest on the course. At hundred yards in length, the Sahara bunker visually dominates but is shallow. Furthermore, on the direct tee to green line, there is forty-three yards of open fairway past the Sahara to the front of the open green."

This says to me that such a long hole is dumbed down on purpose. It would be much better smartened up like the 17th and made a par 4.

In essence, the 8th requires a stroke with a driver/3 wood not unlike what is required on about 14 other holes on the course. IMHO, it is a black eye on Oakmont!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Moore II

Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2007, 07:47:40 PM »
Garland-
How many holes on the course truly examine the driver/3wood? Meaning, how many holes require that the player make an excellent swing in order to find the correct part of the fairway? In my experience playing courses (somewhat limited I suppese, 50-60 courses total) I have witnessed very few holes where I really felt I had to hit an excellent drive in order to have a good chance on the hole. On most holes, the player is able to rip the ball out there in some 'field' 50-60 yards wide. Therefore, I think that playing a par 3 in the driver/3 wood distance range is good because it actually examines how well you can hit a driver. can the player hit a driver into a 25 yard wide area?
To the first point about long par 3's- they do exist, but on public courses, they are simply inpractical. Just as another person said, they slow up play too much. While I like a real long par 3 to test me, the reality is, they do not exist anymore at public facilities for pace of play reasons.

Garland Bayley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2007, 07:54:34 PM »
John,

Can't imagine what kind of courses you play where you can hit it anywhere and get the same result.

Players slow down play, not long par 3s. I thought the idea that long par 3s slow down play had been well refuted on this thread.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jordan Wall

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:The Missing Link - Long Par-3's on Private but not on Public Courses ?
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2007, 08:03:36 PM »
Jordan,

You know me, I'm always in a hissy fit. Hitting a four iron from the back tee for a mid range hitter is not something that is done on a long par 3 of the type being discussed here!

All,

Here's the deal folks. On a typical course with four par threes, there are 14 holes where driving is being examined. Why waste one or more of your par threes to examine hitting driver or 3 wood yet again? Huge waste of time to me and Tilly! Causes automatic lowering of the rating of the course. Get over this silly idea that Matt seems to have that long par threes are important.


Garland,

I dont understand you at all.

Any decent course should have at least two holes, not being par threes, that allow a long iron to be used off the tee.  I think really good courses present that option on almost every hole.  Point blank, the thought that a mid length player should never have to hit woods into a par three is stupid.  That is only dimishing the variety of holes.

The last thing we need is a course where all the par threes are 175 yards and under.  Because really, a mid length player hits his 4-iron about 175 yards.