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Mike_Cirba

Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« on: December 13, 2007, 10:51:54 PM »
I'm looking at page 228 in Jack Nicklaus's "The Greatest Game of All", which shows Muirfield's 18th green from behind during the 72nd hole of the 1966 British Open.

The beauty and natural attractiveness of the picture has me asking myself why every green isn't just cut at fairway level, much like Garden City GC, where that feature (or really, lack thereof) adds so much intrigue, complexity, deception, and interest to the golf game.   Why do we feel somehow compelled to prop our greens up on a throne, or sink them down between mounds?

Is it visibility and attractiveness of presentation?

I am starting to think that's a pretty vain reason that has nothing much to do with golf.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 07:43:30 AM by MPCirba »

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2007, 10:57:06 PM »
#9 and Bandon Trials is fairway level.  That was the first thing I noticed.  I said, few folks have the balls to do that type of thing anymore.  Thus, I think Bandon Trials is Top 10!

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2007, 10:58:27 PM »
I'm looking at page 228 in Jack Nicklaus's "The Greatest Game of All", which shows Muirfield's 18th green from behind during the 72nd hole of the 1966 British Open.

The beauty and natural attractiveness of the picture has me asking myself why every green isn't just cut at fairway level, much like Garden City GC, where that feature (or really, lack thereof) adds so much intrigue, complexity, deception, and interest to the golf game.   Why do we feel somehow compelled to prop our greens up on a throne, or sink them down between mounds?

Is it visibility and attractiveness of presentation?

I am starting to think that's a pretty vain reason that has nothing much to do with golf.

I agree!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2007, 11:06:33 PM »
Paul,

My dad bought me that book back in 1972 and through 35 years of looking at golf pictures that one from behind 18 at Muirfield is still the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

Actually, in the mid-80s it led me to trespassing onto the course just to see it in person, but that's a story best left to the tabloids.  

Peter Pallotta

Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2007, 11:12:09 PM »
Mike
Have you seen the pictures of those lesser known British parkland courses that Sean Arble posts now and again? To me they always seem just about the prettiest and most peaceful places to play golf I can imagine. (They look all of one piece and comfortable in their own skins, and maybe that sense of ease gets transmitted to the golfer.) To my eyes, they have a number of things in common, including greens like the ones you describe and low-profile, sandy-dirt bunkers (and not a lot of them). An architect wrote me after I posted my appreciation for that look, and said he loved the look too but that it would never fly in North America, at least not at new courses; we've just come to expect 'more for our money'. I have to imagine he's right, but I can't imagine (or at least I don't know) the reasons we went in so different a direction, and why we seem to be hurtling along as fast as we can to get even further away from that starting point, and faster than ever. I can understand matters of individual taste; it's the collective taste that I can't get a handle on.

Peter


Mike_Cirba

Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2007, 11:14:52 PM »
I don't know if this has ever been covered here before, but perhaps a better way of asking the question is simply, what is the need for a "green complex"?

It's as if there is some need for some separate, disjointed, area of golf that somehow begs to be created within 40 yards of the hole location on all sides, that is to be an arena of creativity and variety and planned "response" to the golfer's stimuli, as if a ball approaching area "E", leaves recovery option C, D, or F as the next shot.

Why do we so desperately seek to impose our own limited imaginations and creativity on what is already naturally there?   Do we not trust it, or is it that we can't resist the impulse to leave our own imprint?

Peter Pallotta

Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2007, 11:30:36 PM »
"Why do we so desperately seek to impose our own limited imaginations and creativity on what is already naturally there?  Do we not trust it, or is it that we can't resist the impulse to leave our own imprint?"

Wonderful question, Mike - and an excellent way to put it.  If Adam Clayman were here, he just might answer, "Ego".

He did that once, just days after I'd joined up. A one word post: "Ego".  It struck me then and has stuck with me ever since, and I've danced around this issue for 800 posts, and I still haven't produced anything even remotely as good -- but then, I don't have Adam's way with words, obviously :)

Peter


Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2007, 11:36:46 PM »


If par is to be "defended at the green" then elevation is a great tool.

Drainage would also be be a benefit.



Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2007, 01:00:36 AM »
I appreciate the general sentiment but I’m not so sure ego is always the evil culprit responsible for manufactured green complexes. Sometimes the game demands them. For sure, there is something very special about greens that fit seamlessly with their surroundings—provided those surroundings have inherent interest. This would appear easier to do on an undulating site where a slightly elevated green site may be chosen for drainage purposes and the overall contours of the surrounding area softened to bleed into the green itself. In those cases, going beyond that might well be ego getting in the way. But on a relatively featureless piece of ground, isn't the design and construction of a green complex one of the most creative acts an architect is ever called upon to execute? And don't varied and interesting "surrounds" add shot making variety, demands and interest?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2007, 01:09:44 AM »
Mike,
How about variety?
Thompson

OT Morris

Raynor

Langford & Moreau

Mackenzie

Colt

Tillinghast


« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 01:32:29 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2007, 03:48:37 AM »
Mike, would you really want every green to be fairway level? Don't you think that after a while you would pine for something different?
The pictures posted are great examples of wonderful green sites.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jim Nugent

Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2007, 04:17:44 AM »
Mike, what would Pinehurst #2 be, if all greens were fairway level?  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2007, 05:32:04 AM »
Mike,

A.  Because you'd never have false fronts

I'll get to the rest of the alphabet later. ;D

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't every green be fairway level?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2007, 07:36:15 AM »
Mike,
Ever play Royal Dornoch?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2007, 07:44:16 AM »
Fellows,

I've changed the title as I never want to be called an enemy of variety.  

Some good points, well-taken.  ;D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2007, 08:32:48 AM »
Of course, I'm all for variety too -- who's going to say they're not? -- but I think Mike's point is well taken.  How many modern architects build ANY ground level greens in their work?  Most are conditioned to bring in fill for their greens, as if they are building a house.

I still think the biggest difference between our work and most others is that we rarely bring in any fill to build our greens.  While few of them look like Garden City where they are just an extension of the fairway, that's because I look for a bit of elevation on which to build those greens in the first place.  It still presents a much different effect than actually bringing fill to each spot.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2007, 08:45:24 AM »
Kelly, #12 at Lederach seems to be a green right at fairway level.  Correct?  I love that green!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

wsmorrison

Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2007, 08:46:57 AM »
Mike,

You better watch out or the MacRayBanks police are going to be after you too.  Join me on the run  ;)

wsmorrison

Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2007, 08:51:55 AM »
I know you are aware that Flynn did this quite often.  How do you feel about greens that are not perched but follow uphill or downhill fairway movement?  They can be at fairway level but not level as regards the approach shot.  

One of my favorite fairway level greens is the 12th at Pine Valley.  The lack of depth perception is key to this feature as well as allowing run up and aerial approach options.  False fronts, such as the 6th at Merion East add further interest.  I think variety is best, but more fairway level greens, especially in modern design would be welcome.  I'm not sure most greens should be fairway level, but certainly many is a lot better than none.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 08:53:59 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2007, 08:59:51 AM »
Jim,

Excellent pictures! Reminds me that Tillinghast also moved a lot of dirt!

Is the Raynor hole a Biarritz at Fishers Island?

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2007, 09:17:43 AM »
There's also a technical aspect to why greens aren't fairway level.

It's hard to do a green like at Garden City if you're not on sandy soil.

Imagine you're on a flat clay site, if you go out and and dig out your green to put your layer of sand, you just created a swimming pool with sand in it.

Drainage would kill your design concept. Although Oakmont has some greens that are the extension of the fairway on a clay site, what saves it probably is that those greens are set up in a 4% slope which take care of the drainage aspect
 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2007, 09:19:58 AM »
Mike,

Here are two columns from my Cybergolf that may give some insight.  In re-reading the columns, there are a few points that might inspire a mulligan, but overall it captures some of the considerations that we face:

“My club's greens are much higher than the fairways. When I miss, my shots roll down a slope, recovery is difficult, and my score – and blood pressure – rise! Can we lower the greens?”

Elle,

If your club's name contains the words creek, valley or river, if you see a creek or river on the property, or your clubhouse has a picture of the "great flood of 19XX," your course lies partly in a floodplain, where laws limit structures to minimize economic loss. Golf greens have value, so your architect probably raised them to reduce damage by floods and silt deposits.
Engineers (the calculator kind, not train runners) determine flood levels, using computer programs that I don't understand. When engineers aren't available, I estimate flood levels, using less accurate methods I do understand, such as looking at flood insurance maps, at the land (where broad, flat areas border streams, ending at a steeper bank, which is the approximate flood limit) or railroad and highway bridges, which are usually above flood levels.
Engineers describe flood levels in terms of 10-, 25-, 50- and 100-year storms. In any year, floodwaters have a 10%, 4%, 2% and 1% chance, respectively, of reaching those particular levels.
Golf course architects usually raise greens to 50 or 100-year flood protection, tees to 25- or 10-year levels, and fairways to 2- to 10-year levels, if we have enough fill material. Some tees and fairways have no defense against floods.
Compensatory storage regulations prevent increasing drainage downstream from its natural condition, further limiting how much we can fill. We must provide as much flood storage capacity by cutting as much earth (usually to build lakes) in floodplains as add while building mounds, bunkers, tees and greens.
Attaining exact flood protection is not critical, as flooding every 49 years isn't much different from every 50. We also balance the problems of everyday difficulty – which you encountered – versus the periodic rebuilding, knowing that clubs typically rebuild greens on a 12- to 15-year schedule. Raising greens for maximum flood protection probably delays, but not avoids rebuilding your greens.
Even on upland portions of your golf course, the elevation of the greens probably has more to do with construction expediency than design philosophy.

In gently rolling topography, greens fit most naturally, cost least to construct, and disrupt fewer trees, if built near the vertical middle of gentle slopes. This is the 12th at The Legend Course at Giants Ridge, in Biwabik, Minn.
Greens built midway up (say 5 of the 10 feet) gentle up-slopes, allow construction with bulldozers, balancing earth cuts and fills right on site, rather than hauling additional fill from elsewhere, as is the case in the floodplain greens. From a playability standpoint, only one side or the other will be substantially lower than the green elevation, which you can figure in your shot strategy.
The 3rd green at Springhouse Golf Club at Opryland, in Nashville, Tenn., sits in the floodplain astride the Cumberland River. We elevated this short par-3 green above 100-year flood levels, using fill from the wetland created just in front of the green, which also provides compensatory flood storage.


Part 2:

Construction practicality, trends, course type and conditions, and individual approach shots influence green elevation. When I started golfing in 1967, many courses advertised their "elevated greens" in the phone book. I think this meant to connote advantages of professional design (contrasted with "mom-and-pop" courses) and difficulty, since golfers and golf rankings then equated difficulty with quality.
Elevated greens are difficult, effectively presenting smaller targets, and rejecting shots, while low greens accept them. Bunkers are deeper, side slopes kick shots down to a difficult recovery pitch.
Elevated greens were a trend in the 1960s, but like skirt length, these trends go up and down! Early Scots placed greens on small plateaus. In varying U.S. climates, architects built them in small hollows to collect rainfall. With early irrigation systems, they elevated them slightly for drainage, and still more by 1960 to counteract increasingly skilled golfers. By 1980 public courses dominated, and we built greens lower to collect shots, and speed play. The trend is still towards lower greens, which provide increased creativity (read: fun) and shot-making options, and wheelchair access to meet Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requirements.
The typical green is probably slightly elevated above the fairway, which allows:

• Surface drainage;

• Sunlight and air movement;

• The green's visibility and visual importance as the ultimate target;

• Bunker depth and visibility; and

• Construction of surrounding berms to hold shots near the green.
When considering shot values and variety, green elevations should vary considerably. Shorter approach shots may have – but don't need – higher greens, while longer approaches need lower greens. The ROBOT (Rule, Often Broken, Of Thumb) I use is: 1 foot above the fairway per approach iron – i.e., 5 feet above fairway level for an average 5-iron shot, 9 feet for a 9-iron.
This allows average players to roll longer approach shots on the green. As hazards are usually deeper on higher greens, it creates proportionally stiffer penalties for missing with short irons.
Green elevation depends largely on individual green sites, as some sites demand certain elevations for flood plain, visibility, or slope requirements. Where flexible, we generally – but not always – vary green elevations by:
• Course type, lowering greens on municipal courses.

• Wind velocity and direction, lowering greens on heavily windy sites and upwind holes, where a player is likely to try a lower shot to the green; raising them on gently downwind holes, where players may fly a high, soft shot to the green.
• Hole type, creating different shot types among par-3, short par-4, and par-5 holes, but keeping greens low on long par-4s.
• Consecutive holes for distinct sequence.

• Green size, raising oversized (for their shot length) greens, lowering undersized ones.

• Hazards, often lowering greens with severe or surrounding hazards.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2007, 09:25:46 AM »
Jeff:

The most interesting point in there for me was that many people would equate "elevated greens" with professional design, as opposed to mom-and-pop construction.

In hindsight I think this is true of a lot of the features we see on modern courses, and a lot of the reason for the exorbitant costs of modern courses.  Maybe mom and pop knew best!  :)

Tom Roewer

Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2007, 09:34:59 AM »
A very interesting thing at The Camargo Club ( I was told and it seems so) is that throughout all the ravines and level changes, all of the greens and tees are within 6 feet of elevation of each other.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why shouldn't most greens be fairway level?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2007, 09:36:37 AM »
Tom,

I vividly recall going through the Chicago phone book in vain attempts to get last minute, Saturday morning tee times in the 1967-1977 era :), and many, many courses advertised "Elevated Greens" as their main selling points.  Perhaps those were the courses that didn't have 7000 Yards to advertise.

Truthfully, I think the big reason for elevating them is the definition acheived and the ability to gain some bunker depth.  On shadowy sites, grade level greens are often hard to discern.  This site can argue it all they want, but I have never bought into the idea that the hole's main target should blend too much into the surrounding scenery on a regular basis.  Now, that doesn't mean the green needs to be some big extravaganza, but IMHO it should be the focal point in most cases.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 09:39:07 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach