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JSPayne

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Oldest Course in America
« on: December 11, 2007, 11:13:08 AM »
Ok history buffs, give a guy not up on his golf history a break, but this subject came up in discussion this morning at my course....

I'm sure it's been discussed on here many times before, but I'd like to make this a multi-question all-compassing thread...

What is the...

(1)...first course ever built in the US (may not be still in existance)?
(2)...oldest course built in the US still in operation today?
(3)...oldest private course in the US?
(4)...oldest public course in the US?
(5)...oldest course west of the Mississippi? (Someone is trying to tell me it may actually be a course in Hawaii??? :-\)

And to hold true to the real architecture nature of this site...

(6) What is the oldest course that has the least amount of tinkering and still holds most true to its original design?

Of course I'm sure this last may be up for debate.
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"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Dean Paolucci

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2007, 11:25:22 AM »
Here is a link to an old article in Golf Magazine from January 1995 which has some of the info you are looking for.  I hope it helps.

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline/features/history/article/0,17742,467843,00.html
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JSPayne

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 11:38:11 AM »
Interesting article Dean....

Few items of note from it....

They claim Olympic Club to be the oldest west of the Mississippi....and I must assume they just mean the "club" as I'm pretty sure the golf course wasn't built until some time later (1919).

Also, pulling from the NCGA Bluebook (which I know is not always the most accurate of resources, but nonetheless is still a decent reference) I have the following courses just from NorCal:

Aetna Springs (1890): 9-holer which to the best of my knowledge Tom Doak may be involved with now

Mare Island (1892): 18-holes, but may have originally only been 9, hence Aetna and Mare not being recognized as the "oldest (regulation) courses West of the Mississippi)"

I guess besides those two the oldest "18-hole course" west of the Mississippi must be Burlingame CC (1893)?

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"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2007, 11:46:23 AM »
JSPayne,

Van Cortlandt Park in NY is usually recognized as the oldest public course in the U.S..
Dutcher, in Pawling, NY, is recognized as the oldest 9-hole public(1890).

 
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JSPayne

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 12:32:57 PM »
Jim,

Dutcher is recognized as the oldest 9-holer in the US? Seems odd...I figured there would be much older courses on the East Coast. You have a date for Van Cortlandt Park?

Sounds like Aetna Springs might be a close competitor if that is the actual case.

Sean Tully or Tom Doak care to chime in on info about Aetna?

(I know you're out there lurking Tully........ ;) )
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 12:34:08 PM by JSPayne »
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"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Garland Bayley

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2007, 12:33:06 PM »
Quote from: JSPayne on December 11, 2007, 11:38:11 AM
...
I guess besides those two the oldest "18-hole course" west of the Mississippi must be Burlingame CC (1893)?



Gearhart Golf Links in Oregon claims to begin playing 3 holes in 1892.
The site of The Home Course in WA claims to be the oldest site for golf (NLE) west of the Mississippi (1830s)
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sam Morrow

Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2007, 12:36:24 PM »
I can't open the link for the article but I will add that some claim Fort Sam Houston (San Antonio) had a course as far back as Reconstruction. I don't buy that but that's what I've read and been told sitting around a few locker rooms in ole San Antone.
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JSPayne

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2007, 12:42:15 PM »
Sam,

I had the same problem. You have to highlight and cut and paste the whole link into your nagvigation bar to get to the article. (The commas disconnect the link in the middle making it non-functional)
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"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Joe Bausch

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2007, 12:42:27 PM »
Is there any debate whether Niagara-on-the-Lake's course is the oldest in North America?  I'll admit I was surprised a bit when I read that while visiting there recently.
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@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

J_ Crisham

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2007, 12:53:11 PM »
Original architect of Van was Mr .T. McClure Peters. Unable to find an exact date. Evidentally Bendelow added 9 holes in 1898. Redo by Wm. F. Mitchell.
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JMorgan

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2007, 12:59:19 PM »
The answer to Questions 1-3 ? ...

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Garland Bayley

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2007, 01:04:23 PM »
Quote from: Dean Paolucci on December 11, 2007, 11:25:22 AM
Here is a link to an old article in Golf Magazine from January 1995 which has some of the info you are looking for.  I hope it helps.

Golf Magazine Article
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_Tully

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2007, 01:12:34 PM »
Last that I have heard is that an article was found that  dates Aetna back to 1890. It is just beyond me how they got golf started in Aetna in 1890!!!!, as even today, it is out in the sticks.

I have an article dated to 1914 if I remember correctly, where they were debating which was the oldest course and the two courses were Oakhurst and a course at White Sulphur Springs(not sure about that second one, I will have to look it up later.)

With the influx of Scottish immigrants to the Americas, somebody had to have been hitting the old ball around before then, its just a matter of finding a reference.

As to what course is the oldest West of the Mississippi, a lot of different courses claim it and I am not sure how seriously it has been studied beyond the individual club. I am doing some research, but have yet to get to that time frame and have depended on the research done by others. It is a hodgepodge of fact and fiction from what I have been able to put together.

Tully
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JMorgan

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2007, 01:17:27 PM »
Since no one is going to guess which course in the picture, here's a blurb from the website:

In February 1888, a Scottish sportsman named John Reid and several of his friends took an armful of clubs, some gutta percha balls and hearts full of enthusiasm to a pasture in Yonkers for a friendly round of “Gowf.” There, in front of a gallery of bemused cows, they knocked the balls around a three-hole course. Before long, these golfing pioneers had commandeered their own “clubhouse” – an old apple tree from whose gnarled branches they hung their coats and obligatory flasks of fine scotch whiskey.

This was the birth of what was to become the oldest continuously existing golf club in the United States, The Saint Andrew’s Golf Club.
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2007, 01:19:57 PM »
JS,
VCPGC has a date of 1885, if I'm not mistaken.

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JMorgan

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2007, 01:33:12 PM »
Quote from: Jim_Kennedy on December 11, 2007, 01:19:57 PM
JS,
VCPGC has a date of 1885, if I'm not mistaken.


Jim, I think Vanny opened in 1895.  But I, too, could undoubtedly very surely likely be mistaken.  (So says my wife all the time.)
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JSPayne

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2007, 01:35:41 PM »
Aetna is definetly in the sticks Tully, but I want to know how they built a course in Hawaii in 1898!!!

http://oahucc.memfirstclubs.net/club/scripts/library/view_document.asp?S=NAV&DID=2620&GRP=5213&NS=PUBLIC

This must be the course that someone was trying to convince me was the oldest west of the Mississippi this morning, but obviously Aetna and Mare Island, among others here in CA have it beat.
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"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2007, 01:46:54 PM »
Professional Golf Historian Bob Labbance wrote a fascinating piece for the June 2007 issue of The Bulletin, the official publication of the Golf Collector's Society on the oldest continually operated courses in the United States with  St. Andrew's and Dorset Field Club on the list. What was shocking though is that Foxburg Country Club outside of Pittsburgh dates its founding to 1885.

Bob also told me that there are shipping registers from the late 1700 documenting golf clubs coming to the United States.

Anthony

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JMorgan

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2007, 01:59:58 PM »
As early as the late 1700s, a group of men played golf in Charleston, SC ... the "grounds" were located in the area bounded by present day Broad, Rutledge, and Beaufain Streets, just north of the Battery.  

Never heard of Foxburg ... huh.
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Adam Clayman

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2007, 02:56:40 PM »
This is all from a very poor memory, but, I recall the year 1744 for some obscure course with an odd number of holes as being the oldest in the U.S.

As for West of the Mississippi, Del Monte claims to be the oldest 18 holes in contiguous operation. 1897.

The original set of questions could be qualified further by the number of holes.
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Brad Tufts

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2007, 03:08:13 PM »
I think Oakhurst Golf Links is purported to have opened/been built/been sheep-mowed in 1884, but it have obviously not been continuously operated, hence the titles of St. Andrews and Dorset FC.
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paul westland

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2007, 07:24:36 PM »
1891. Grindstone Neck, Winter Harbor, Maine; just to add to the rota!   ;D  
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JMorgan

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2007, 07:28:55 PM »
Royal Montreal was founded in 1873.










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Ally Mcintosh

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2007, 05:39:15 AM »
Quote from: Brad Tufts on December 11, 2007, 03:08:13 PM
I think Oakhurst Golf Links is purported to have opened/been built/been sheep-mowed in 1884, but it have obviously not been continuously operated, hence the titles of St. Andrews and Dorset FC.


the answer to question 2 is generally accepted to be Oakhurst which was founded in 1882 and was 80 years out of existence until 1994... however, it is still being played over today and thus holds that title...

It is not to be confused with the titles of St.Andrews (1888)(subsequently contested by Dorset (1886) and Foxburg (1887)) which are considered to be the first organised golf clubs (not courses) in the US....

...the question regarded the US and not North America... all the oldest golf clubs on the continent originate from Canada
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Art Roselle

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Re:Oldest Course in America
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2007, 02:03:26 PM »
The Homestead claims that its Old Course has the oldest first tee in continuous use (whatever that means).  However, they date it to 1892, which is "newer" than some of the other courses mentioned.
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