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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Greg Norman
« on: December 07, 2007, 10:07:58 PM »
Seems to me that this group should really like Greg Norman as a golf course designer. Most Norman courses seem to have wide fairways, lots of tightly-mown run off areas around the greens, generally low-profile landscaping, and strategic options on most holes.

Sure, his courses are hard and occasionally weird, but he seems to get very, very little love on this site.

I say he should get more. Discuss.

bakerg

Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2007, 07:16:30 AM »
Matt - I agree with you that Norman does have his priorties in order when it comes to designing courses.  He just seems to get in his own way when executing on them.

I really think Norman's portfolio would be dramatically different if he had done a co-design with some of the current crop of Doak, Kidd, Hanse, Coore, etc.  Or if he had someone of that caliber working for him.  

The best work I have seen from him is TPC at Sugarloaf.  The rest of his work just doesn't seem to get the job done.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2007, 08:20:17 AM »
Matt:

He was always a better player on paper in major championships than in practice.  Perhaps it has carried over.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2007, 09:05:05 AM »
Tom,

Ouch.

I played TPC Sugarloaf about 8 years ago and was very impressed.  This is the only Norman course I've played, but given it works through a very high end real estate development, it had an interesting mix of holes and the housing only encroaches uncomfortably in a few places.

Unique holes like #3, a short dog leg par 4 down a hill, Hole #11 bordering a lake the entire left side and Hole #13 the 310 yard driveable par 4 contrast with tough holes like the bunkerless green complex of the 7th, long 9th and the tough uphill 14th, where I almost hit Stewart Cink's house with my drive.

I'm surprised more people don't complain about the vertical sod bunker faces in all Norman's bunkers, including fairway bunkers.  Most Americans are accustomed to getting a good lie and a shot to advance a ball entirely to the green.

Ken

Brock Peyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2007, 11:28:10 AM »
It seems that I have two points of view on Norman.  My first Masters that my Dad took me to as a kid was Norman's first Masters, I remember my Dad pointing him out to me and telling me that he was the next Jack Nicklaus and from then I was hooked on Augusta and Norman.  I was a big fan but honestly I was like many people disappointed that he didn't win more.

As far as Norman's courses go, I live directly behind Sugarloaf, I drive by their 3rd nine all the time and must admit that I really like the look of it.  The only Norman course that I have played is The River Club (here in Duluth, Ga) and I really enjoyed that course.  

Do people not like Norman b/c he is an elitist but didn't live up to what we or others think his full potential would or should  be?  I love the Cubs too even though they lose more than they win but I feel differently about them than I do Norman.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2007, 12:25:17 PM »
In my opinion he has done some good work but most of it is in Australia. The consclusions from people that I have spoke with in the industry with more knowledge on the subject then I have is, they say he has a better team in Australia. When you crank out as many courses as he is, it depends on the developer, the project architect representing him, the super, the piece of land and he has had some beauties and how much heart and soul the team is willing to give. If not, then it becomes, let see how much milk we can take out of this cow or get in and get out quickly and there are definetly some of those out there! As most of you know he loves, Toys! I have been to his office about twelve to fourteen years ago when half the technogolgy exsisted that exsist today and he had a movie screen in his office and his project architect would take a TV camera with him that would broadcast live to the big screen what the Architect was filming and seeing. Greg would prop his feet up on the desk and say I like it, I don´t like it, lower that mound, raise that mound. I was impressed and impressed he was so, so to speak, so hands on for a golfing professional architect. I doubt he now gets so, Hands on!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2007, 03:03:03 PM »
Just another data point in the conversation:

I talked to the pro at Lansdowne and he said Norman made 8-9 visits when the course was being built, even though he was only contractually obligated to make 3.

The course here has many closely mown chipping areas mostly to the sides and behind the greens.  And the bunkering is far from flat and looks to be challenging for recoveries.

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2007, 03:04:25 PM »
Bob Harrison is his main designer in & around Australia. Courses like National Moonah, The Vintage, Brookwater are 3 excellent courses that are all different. His best of those (Moonah Course at The National) is reviewed in the courses by country section.

I’m not sure how much Greg is in the office, but I’m told he is a little more ‘hands on’ than some pro golfer architects.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2007, 03:35:14 PM »

He was always a better player on paper in major championships than in practice.  Perhaps it has carried over.

Meow. Bowl of milk for Mr. Doak please! :)

The luxury you have as non-pro golf course designer is that you can build up your skills under the watchful eye of another designer (like Pete Dye) before you go out and start spending people's money for real. You have to make the decision to find an experienced designer who is willing to work in a secondary role to buttress your learning curve. The people hiring you to design the course most likely don't have the money to hire Pete Dye (or Tom Doak) to help out. Bob Harrison is that guy in Australia.

Even though I find the Vintage to be a ridiculous golf course. Moonah National and Ellerton are both phenomenal tracks that don't get the amount of attention they deserve due to location or access.
Next!

Matt_Ward

Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2007, 04:02:38 PM »
Just to weigh in with a few thoughts. I've played a few Norman courses -- none in Australia -- but I really like what The Shark did at Red Sky Ranch (Wolcott, CO) with the 18 named for him.

Very well done -- with sufficent width and enough contour on the greens to keep just about anyone honest.

I wish Norman would design even more courses but it seems his multi-faceted business interests take in plenty of directions.

I'm looking forward to playing one of his most recent layouts Cornerstone in the Telluride area later in '08.

p.s. On the issue of Norman's days as a player -- he was a peach to watch when in full flight -- although it's a pity his record is not full as his potential was. Still, arguably, one of the best drivers of the ball golf has ever seen.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2007, 04:03:48 PM »
Greg Norman is a conglomerate.

Player, architect, winemaker, clothing guy, real estate, etc.
Branding.
If "success" is defined by the # of jobs he has and continues to get, he's a successful architect

The fact that he's been "successful" in all those other fields tells me he's either.

a)gotten exactly the right people in key positions taking care of things

b)those businesses aren't all that competitive and deep pockets and connections go a long way

c)he's superman

or

d) he's not really anymore "successful" in those endeavors than golf architecture either, we just aren't sophisticated or inside enough to know the difference- and that insiders and critics in those businesses view him as critically and spread too thinly as most on GCA do.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matt_Ward

Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2007, 04:09:07 PM »
jeffwarne:

Norman's work as an architect needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis -- don't you think?

Where does labeling people help understand the precise nature of the different courses in different setting he has created? Unfortunately, the situation on GCA tends to favor certain people while dismissing or playing down significantly the cast of "others" who are not preferred.

Frankly, I wonder how many of his courses you have personally played? If you can outline his deficiencies from a specific course standpoint you've personally encountered I'd like to hear your case.

One last thing -- I'm not suggesting Norman doesn't have flaws -- who doesn't -- but from the work I have played compared to other "tour" name people in the design arena the examples of his work I have played to date are quite favorable.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2007, 04:22:41 PM »
Myself and a few friends went up to Greg Norman at a practice round for the 1996 Western Open at Cog Hill for an autograph, his exact words were "scram." Have not been a fan since, esp. his work at Private Royal Melborne north of Chicago...its a water filled course pretending to be Kemper Lakes.

And as a side note, my buddies and I decided to follow someone else that day, an Am. that none of us had ever heard of but he had a pretty big crowd and was signing autographs...Tiger Woods.
H.P.S.

Michael Christensen

Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2007, 04:24:55 PM »
I've played 3 Norman courses.......River Club, TPC and that abomination in Orlando, Grande Lakes at the Ritz.  His Georgia courses are OK....but I felt absolutely ripped off in Orlando....it was by far the most bland Florida course I have ever played.

Matt_Ward

Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2007, 04:29:07 PM »
Pat:

Let's get real -- OK.

I can name plenty of instances where celebrities of all different types blew off fans. Try getting Tiger to even look at people and you will find the same situation. Don't even think he's going to spend the sheer amt of time AP and JN have done when signing autographs and the like.

Norman has issues -- so do many people playing at the highest of levels.

On the design front -- you didn't like his work in Chicago. So be it. I can say this -- he has done other work which is quite good IMHO and I've played no less than a half a dozen layouts.

I can remember people telling me how insensitive Sam Snead was to dealing with people. In the instances I encountered him that was not the case at all. Different situations likely meant different reactions.

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2007, 04:30:05 PM »
I've only played one of his courses - The Medalist in South Florida. Although I would not want to play it everyday ( too demanding for me!) I think it is a well designed course. I guess he had some help from Pete Dye and has since made umpteen changes but it is a real test of golf. If you're looking for a challenge where you need to hit every shape of shot and club in your bag and you have a good short game this should do it for you. Why are we bringing his personality, golf game and other business ventures into this discussion? I thought we were discussing the merits of his course design? Those other topics have nothing to do with whether his courses are designed well.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 04:34:12 PM by Dean Stokes »
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2007, 05:43:57 PM »
Matt,
How do you know I didn't choose option C?

I was merely trying to say it would be unfair to judge a man who devotes a smaller percentage of his time to architecture than say Rees Jones, Tom  Fazio ,or Tom Doak,Bill Coore, Kelly Blake Moran ,Gil Hanse, Kelly Blake Moran and a host of other full time architects.

I also would define him as succesful, the same as the ones (and many others) mentioned above.

Perhaps my quotation marks around the word successful threw you off.

It really doesn't matter what i think if his clients are happy and more importantly, others continue to sign up.


That said, and since you asked

The worst redesign I've ever played was Norman's Great White at Doral. He inherited a functional golf course located on a pretty piece of property with massive mature Ficus trees and Australian pines lending it the character and maturity rarely found on a Florida course.
And blew up the par 3 course.

He went with a "desert theme" completely leveling the entire property and ALL trees which previously had been blocking the urban blight and industrial buildings surrounding the property.
Tons sand was brought in for wall -to -wall waste desert bunkers became the new rough. Hundreds of rediculous palm trees were brought in.
AWFUL.
And overlooked by a ghetto and indutrial buildings which were blocked out prior to the "desert" treatment.

Some of the worst golf holes I've ever played. I've played it about a hundred times as it was the ONLY course I could get on when teaching clients at Doral because the rest of the courses had to handle the overflow from an empty course.
Spent 12 million-could've done a much  job by building 5-10 new tees and regrassing the place for about 10-20 % of what they spent. And it would've been about the equivalent of the Blue course at Doral.
Green fee went from $80-$250 to finance it -except nobody would play it so it sat empty.

I've also played Medalist which was OK but it would be somewhat difficult to screw up with one of the greats of architecture at his side.

I've played Temenos 10-15 times and  I find it very redundant and the routing is such that you're continually playing holes with hazards/jungle right and left on firm fast fairways with no rough in high  crosswinds. The two holes that play downwind have bunkers in front so inevitably the players are playing from 40-50 yards over the green in the firm conditions.
I guess firmness(which is great) doesn't show up on the office video so you can just use the same greensite you used at the last course,regardless of conditions.

As you can see I don't seek out Norman courses (I leave that to the heavy lifters).
I'm from the school that says if you hurt your head banging it against the wall -stop.
I play courses and take friends and clients to courses that I think they'll enjoy.

I have great respect for Greg Norman the golfer and businessman. I love his story about rising up from assistant pro to World golfer #1-and his drive to succeed at everything he does. I rooted for him hard for years and I still would.

I just think it's rediculous to think someone who puts a small percentage of their time into his craft could ever compare with men who have devoted their lives to studying architecture, working on crews with great mentors, worked on miniscule budgets while acquiring credibility, traveled overseas repeatedly to study the great works of the UK---- in short know what works and have the HANDS ON (and by hands on I mean actually at the site)experience to know what works on a variety of sites.

There's a reason there are a lot of Doak , Coore, Hanse butt boys out there.(with apologies to all the other dedicated successful full time architects)
They've paid their dues and are finally getting jobs (and more importantly sites)that for years went to the Palmer, Nicklaus's,
Players of the world and the results speak for themselves.


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2007, 06:46:32 PM »

Norman's work as an architect needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis -- don't you think?

It has to be, considering some disasters, tinkering and hard head on certain issues.

Possibly his greatest course was The Medalist, his home course in Florida.  I remember Jack Whitaker on Shells Wonderful World of Golf (Norman vs. Price) commented that this course is headed towards being a very high world Top 100 course.  Every year he would tinker with it, sometimes making huge changes.  The course now isn't even on the radar as being one of the best in Florida much less the US or World.  Much of the membership bailed out, even his best buddy Nick Price, he sold off the home development portion and now there are rumors he may sell the club.

Take as examples, Mirabel and Savannah Quarters.  Both courses plowed under before opening as the owners and or members hated them?

Doonbeg is another example of major modifications needed after it was completed.  (I haven't played it so others could comment).

The guy may be a mad scientist, ahead of his time but I think he digs his heels in and probably is not flexible to suggestions?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2007, 07:22:24 PM »
Hi Matt,

 I wasn't trying to be unreal.

 I get that you catch certain people at good and bad times. However I was only telling my one personal story of Greg Norman from when I was about 12. Telling 12 y/o kids to scram is acting like a jerk. There are a few other stories that are well told around the boston college campus where his daughter went to school that I can spare from everyone.

 As for his work, as far as I know I have only played one of his courses...and it stunk, regardless of who designed it.

 Pat
H.P.S.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2007, 08:47:24 PM »
Myself and a few friends went up to Greg Norman at a practice round for the 1996 Western Open at Cog Hill for an autograph, his exact words were "scram." Have not been a fan since, esp. his work at Private Royal Melborne north of Chicago...its a water filled course pretending to be Kemper Lakes.

And as a side note, my buddies and I decided to follow someone else that day, an Am. that none of us had ever heard of but he had a pretty big crowd and was signing autographs...Tiger Woods.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2007, 08:54:46 PM »
It's a shame your encounter with Greg Norman was not positive. I have been involved at the Western since 1982 with the WGA in many capacities. Greg has always been very good to our tournament and the true benificiary, the Evans Scholars. Just remember everyone has a bad day. I can also recall a day when I witnessed Ben Crenshaw get short with a fan .As an aside he just carded a 76. I still consider him to be a fine gentleman. Just a thought.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2007, 11:45:47 PM »
Savannah Quarters was nor plowed up after Norman's work, but maybe it should be.

Savannah Quarters was a very solid course by Bob Cupp, fairly long for its time, around 7400 from the tips, but the other tees made for very good golf as well.

Norman's development company (Medalist) bought out the original developer. The only rationale I ever heard for the renovation was Norman didn't want a Cupp course at the heart of one of his real estate developments, so he took a perfectly good golf course and made it into a pretty mediocre one. I would be very angry if I had bought in early in the development.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2007, 06:17:55 AM »
Who is Greg's main designer for his American courses ?

People I have spoken to who have played many of his American courses, as well as having played most of his Australian courses agree that Bob Harrison's work is superior to much of his American stuff.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2007, 08:10:48 AM »
The only Norman course I've played is Red Sky Ranch in Colorado. It is surprising that Matt Ward didn't mention this course since it is highly rated -7 in CO by GD. I liked it and look forward to playing Norman's new Jupiter CC in Florida.

Norman's website does not include the names of his staff:

www.shark.com/gngcd/gngcd

Many of his courses have done very well in the press ratings.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greg Norman
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2007, 09:06:00 AM »
I also played Doonbeg and enjoyed it thoroughly.
Despite playing the last 6 holes in a wind driven cold downpour.
I think many have a hard time getting by the cost and the development, but i did like the course.

Most of the difficulty(that others complain about) came from the fact it was new and they had a lot of enviromental issues, which foot traffic over time ,maturity and gradual softening should take care of.

Matt is right that each course should be evaluated on its' own merits-but that's true of any golf course by any architect.

Greg Norman is very successful and by all(most) accounts is a stand up person.
Didn't mean to let one bad golf course experience make others think I wasn't a fan.
There are just full time, more hands on,less known others who I would pick to design a project.
But that COULD be a marketing mistake, even if it produced an architecturally superior golf courseso it would be hard to blame those who hired Norman if their project was a financial success.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey