A question/concern re: Old MacDonald at Bandon Resort (vs. PD)

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks, Matt.

I too don't see much similarity.

So JK, what are we missing?

[Kalen Braley]

I see only one similarity and that is the 7th and 8th holes are closest to the clubhouse on both courses, besides the 1st and 18th holes.  

So there is not returning 9's on both courses, but jeez...how many courses can this be said the same of??

[George_Bahto]

Huck:  I guess it might call for a strong worm-burning ground ball.

hmmmmmm - the way it was originally played way back when???

(Gib can keep it under the wind ... he and I always joked that we could use a driver in the Lincoln Tunnel)

[Tom Huckaby]

Oh shit yeah, our man Gib has NEVER hit a ball more than 6 feet off the ground.

But yes!

The lightbulb goes on.....

Make a biarritz in a crosswind and we all HAVE to play it like Gib....

And that to me sounds pretty damn fun... and oh yes, how the hole was meant to be played.

Bear with me George, it sometimes takes me a few whacks to get things.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

"Gib can keep it under the wind ... he and I always joked that we could use a driver in the Lincoln Tunnel."

George,
Then it should be into the wind!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Using holes parallel to the ocean as a base line add up the angles of the eighteen holes in relation to the ocean and you will find the result to be almost identical.  It is a direct result of view maximification.

[Pete Lavallee]

Although a lot of the holes at TP run north south, the wind is never from the north or south like it is at Bandon. There is always a westerly componet (I'll call it the "X factor") primarily NW and sometimes SW.

[David Stamm]

Using holes parallel to the ocean as a base line add up the angles of the eighteen holes in relation to the ocean and you will find the result to be almost identical.  It is a direct result of view maximification.

That's funny, I don't think TP utilized the views nearly as much as it could have. That may be because Bell jr was forbidden to make the holes too close to the canyons there for liability reasons.

[John Kavanaugh]

Using holes parallel to the ocean as a base line add up the angles of the eighteen holes in relation to the ocean and you will find the result to be almost identical.  It is a direct result of view maximification.

That's funny, I don't think TP utilized the views nearly as much as it could have. That may be because Bell jr was forbidden to make the holes too close to the canyons there for liability reasons.

Maybe it was because TP was my first experience with ocean side California barranca or just the fact that I do not recall playing another Pacific oceanside course that I loved the views at TP.  If you choose to only watch waves hit the sand you are going to miss one hell of a lot of ocean.

[David Stamm]

Using holes parallel to the ocean as a base line add up the angles of the eighteen holes in relation to the ocean and you will find the result to be almost identical.  It is a direct result of view maximification.

That's funny, I don't think TP utilized the views nearly as much as it could have. That may be because Bell jr was forbidden to make the holes too close to the canyons there for liability reasons.

Maybe it was because TP was my first experience with ocean side California barranca or just the fact that I do not recall playing another Pacific oceanside course that I loved the views at TP.  If you choose to only watch waves hit the sand you are going to miss one hell of a lot of ocean.

If it's views you want there, the North has the South beat, IMHO. Plus, it's a better course anyway.

[John Kavanaugh]

As a point of clarification..When a friend tells me he is going to play Winged Foot I do not ask "East or West?".  Torrey Pines is Torrey Pines and the North is the other course.

[David Stamm]

TP is no WF, East or West.

[Tom_Doak]

To answer the question -- it's not a concern for me, whether it is for others or not -- there will be a bit more crosswind golf at Old Macdonald, but still a minority.

Personally, I dislike having many holes playing crosswind in a place where there is SO MUCH wind.  A 30-mph crosswind is beyond the average golfer's ability to cope with, and you have to dumb down such holes in order to make them playable.  So I'm not going to do it often at Old Macdonald, either.  I know others have a "formula" that insists holes play in all compass directions ... but they're wrong in Bandon conditions.

Here is a scorecard with compass direction:

1 - Double Plateau - plays N
2 - Eden - NE
3 - Sahara - SW / S
4 - Hog's Back - S
5 - Short - W to SW
6 - Long - NNE
7 - Knoll (we think) - N
8 - Cape - S
9 - Bottle - S
10 - Dogleg - NW then NE
11 - Redan - SSW
12 - Leven - N
13 - no name yet - E
14 - Road - W
15 - Alps or Biarritz - E
16 - Biarritz or Alps - N or E
17 - Channel - S
18 - Punchbowl - SE then SW

We're waiting to see #15 and #16 with the gorse gone before making the call on which way to orient those two.

The only holes I felt really strongly about which way they should play were the Redan [downwind, because the Redan at Pacific Dunes is into the wind] and the Eden [quartering into the wind].

[John Kavanaugh]

TP is no WF, East or West.

It is top 5 public west of the Mississippi.  I have a friend who played it and Shadow Creek in the same week (for free) and thinks TP is the better course.  Torrey Pines may have done more good for the game on an international basis than any American venue in reference to only people who have played the course.  It is a truly great course and will host a fantastic US Open.  I think you are just too close to see it.

[David Stamm]

TP is no WF, East or West.

It is top 5 public west of the Mississippi.  I have a friend who played it and Shadow Creek in the same week (for free) and thinks TP is the better course.  Torrey Pines may have done more good for the game on an international basis than any American venue in reference to only people who have played the course.  It is a truly great course and will host a fantastic US Open.  I think you are just too close to see it.

Top 5 public or muni? There are quite a few other public accesses that blow TP away, views or not. Hell, Bell jr did a better job with Sandpiper than he did with TP. I'm glad your friend likes the course better, but where does he live? Does he get to the ocean much? If not, I can see how that can have an effect on him. I can "see it" fine. Believe me, I wish I could be more of homer for the course, but it is what it is. I've played it more than most anybody here on this site. It is a fine course, but not great by ANY stretch of the imagination. The Open is here for logisitics (parking, Corp tents, etc.), nothing more. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the "doing more for American golf".

[John Kavanaugh]

To answer the question -- it's not a concern for me, whether it is for others or not -- there will be a bit more crosswind golf at Old Macdonald, but still a minority.

Personally, I dislike having many holes playing crosswind in a place where there is SO MUCH wind.  A 30-mph crosswind is beyond the average golfer's ability to cope with, and you have to dumb down such holes in order to make them playable.  So I'm not going to do it often at Old Macdonald, either.  I know others have a "formula" that insists holes play in all compass directions ... but they're wrong in Bandon conditions.

Here is a scorecard with compass direction:

1 - Double Plateau - plays N
2 - Eden - NE
3 - Sahara - SW / S
4 - Hog's Back - S
5 - Short - W to SW
6 - Long - NNE
7 - Knoll (we think) - N
8 - Cape - S
9 - Bottle - S
10 - Dogleg - NW then NE
11 - Redan - SSW
12 - Leven - N
13 - no name yet - E
14 - Road - W
15 - Alps or Biarritz - E
16 - Biarritz or Alps - N or E
17 - Channel - S
18 - Punchbowl - SE then SW

We're waiting to see #15 and #16 with the gorse gone before making the call on which way to orient those two.

The only holes I felt really strongly about which way they should play were the Redan [downwind, because the Redan at Pacific Dunes is into the wind] and the Eden [quartering into the wind].

Let's not lose this post is in the Torrey Pines fight.

[Mike Benham]

The complaint comes from someone who is going on an upcoming trip that is a former superintendent of a couple high-dollar clubs in Minnesota.

Ask him what the wind conditions are like in December in Minnesota at his old clubs and if they effect playing conditions ...

[Jim Nugent]

I made a stab at what the layout of Old Mac looks like based on Doak's preliminary description of the holes and the directions they run in.  The number of each hole is next to its green:

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

Nice try, but wrong.

The first five holes are approximately correct, but #6 and 7 go up the far western side of our property (alongside #15 and 14 at Pacific Dunes).  8 and 9 come back inside them to the south.  10 goes up parallel with 4, 11 comes back into the middle, 12 north, 13 back to the north of 3 turning point, 14 green is just north of 7 green, and then your last four holes are correct except 17 is much longer so 16 green is also to the north.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Tom, Interesting comments on playing perpendicular to the wind, which I believe would make Bandon courses almost unplayable in the summer wind.  Winter probably wouldn't be that big a deal.  

Some questions I have pertaining to that decision:  how much wider would a hole built perpendicular to the wind have to be?  20, 40, 60 yards?  Doesn't it become a question of cost in both construction and maintenance as well?  Could these considerations ever be overcome?

Also, any report on damge to Bandon, after this weeks storm?  I have heard some pretty disturbing reports from Astoria, and I assum Salishan has also been seriously damaged.  How about Bandon and the trees behind the terminal dune?

[Tom Huckaby]

Great stuff, Tom - many thanks.

So I see the biarritz will be crosswind damn near all the time....the more I think about that, the cooler it becomes....


TH

[Tom_Doak]

Tom H:

The Biarritz is the hole I'm struggling with.

If we use it for hole #15, there is a natural green setting to start with, but it will play in a left-to-right crosswind in the busy season (and in the most exposed location on the site, to boot).

If we ignore that site, and make it the 16th hole, we could orient it more from South to North, but we would have much more earthmoving in order to create the Biarritz form (and even then, it's going to be playing right into a big dune behind it).

We will make that call when we're back on site in January.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom D.:

Making decisions like these is why you get the big bucks.

 

I can see it's a very tough decision though.  As cool as a crosswind biarritz seems to me, there will be plenty who call it "unfair" given the difficulty of keeping the ball on the green... left to right crosswind being even MORE unfair to these folks....

I just wonder though it these types are your target audience with this course.  Heck, it takes a pretty strong knowledge of golf history to even know who CB Macdonald was, let alone have any insight into his courses or design style.  The golfers who will seek out this course - and get this most enjoyment from it - will be these types, not your average belt-notchers.

Still... it seems that the belt-notchers are the lifeblood of the resort, so they can't be ignored.

Tough decision indeed.  I just know which way I am rooting.

TH

[Big B]

Tom...

#2 is called Eden, any similarities to the Eden (#13) @ Beechtree? Thanks.  

[Michael Dugger]

Question for Tom.....

You mentioned once in the past, when talking about the project, that you had yet to find out if you guys were going to be able to dig into the bluff that runs between the ocean and the golf course.

Any update on how that worked out?  Will you be able to get out to the ocean cliffs with Old Mac or is everything going to stay inland?