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Mark Smolens

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2007, 12:51:07 PM »
In my experience, in "casual" or fun rounds, the guys I play with definitely use equitable stroke control (an attempt on the part of the USGA to combat sandbagging, as is the rule about completing 13 holes) to speed up the pace of play.  If somebody hits two out of bounds, he picks up his bag and walks with us to the next tee.  He can't do better than double.  He may drop a ball and hit a pitch onto the green for practice, but that will occur without delaying the completion of the hole.  

The bottom line, however, is that on the average public course round in Chicago on a weekend it doesn't mean squat how fast we play because we'll still be waiting for the group in front of us -- and that isn't the USGA's fault.

Adam Clayman

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2007, 01:03:18 PM »

You are partially right, however, the pencil must record mentality takes most of the cake..

Bob

Bob, I'm sure what you are seeing is correct, however, I'll stick to the justification I cited as being at the root of what you see.
Pace can be done properly, and looks similar to Mark Smolens anecdote, above.

The high costs to play is a huge part of it, by promoting feelings of entitlement, identifying the selfish.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill Brightly

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2007, 02:19:22 PM »
IRISH GOLFER...    



An 80-year old Irish man goes to the doctor for a check-up.

The doctor is amazed at what good shape the guy is in and asks
'How do you stay in such great physical condition?'

I'm Irish and I am a golfer,' says the old guy,' and that's why.
I'm in such good shape.'  I'm up well before daylight and out golfing
up and down the fairways.  Have a glass of whiskey and all is wel!.'

'Well," says the doctor, 'I'm sure that helps, but there's got to be more to it.  
How old was your Dad when he died?'

'Who said my Dad's dead?'

The doctor is amazed "You mean you're 80 years old and your Dad's still alive.  How old is he?'

'He's 100 years old,' says the Old Irish golfer.  'In fact he golfed with me this morning, and then we went to the  beach for a walk , that's why he's still alive ... he's Irish and he's a golfer, too.'

'Well," the doctor says, 'that's great, but I'm sure there's more to it than that.  
How about your Dad's Dad?   How old was he when he died?'

'Who said my grandpa's dead?'

Stunned, the doctor asks, 'You mean you're 80 years old and your
grandfather's still living! Incredible, how old is he?'

'He's 118 years old,' says the Old Irish golfer.

The doctor is getting frustrated at this point,
'So, I guess he went golfing with you this morning too?'

'No.   Grandpa couldn't go this morning because he's getting married today.'

At this point the doctor is close to losing it.  'Getting married!!
Why would a 118 year-old guy want to get married?'

'Who said he wanted to?'

Bob_Huntley

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2007, 02:40:35 PM »
Bill,

I have heard it before but is just as funny in the re-telling.

Bob

Dan Kelly

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2007, 02:45:14 PM »
Bill,

I have heard it before but is just as funny in the re-telling.

Bob


Yes, and it fits in so well with your thread title!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Bob_Huntley

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2007, 02:45:19 PM »
I have just received an IM from one of our distinguished colleagues, that my heading on this thread smacks of advertising a pharmaceutical product for ED.

I would like to issue a disclaimer that it was the furthest thing from my mind.

Bob  

JESII

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2007, 03:08:40 PM »
Well, it was the first thing that came to my mind...maybe because I'm just a young irish golfer...

Lou_Duran

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2007, 03:15:51 PM »
Bob,

There are many reasons why play is often slow in the U.S. and particularly in CA.  I doubt that putting out and scorekeeping for handicap purposes are in the top three or four.

I confess that I am of the pencil and card type, normally making copious notes while playing, and occasionally clicking (discreetly) my digital camera 10, 20, or 50+ times.  I've been known to do all this while shooting a decent score and finishing in a foursome under four hours.

I believe that density (amount of play), culture, and course characteristics are far more important contributors to slow play.  Public courses that run 100,000 rounds per year will be slow.  In SoCal, unless you play in the first few groups, you're out there for five to six hours.

Culture is a broad category which includes types of golfers who play socially within large groups without much concern to those outside.  There are many golfers who simply enjoy chatting, observing everyone's shot, and are seldom ready to hit when it is their turn.  I think that going with purpose to your ball, being ready, and hitting promptly when it is your turn is the key to a good pace of play.  The culture can be changed more easily at private courses.  Saint Andrews seems to have accomplished it with a hard-ass, no nonesense mobile marshalling group, but I doubt that this approach is transferable but to a few other public venues.

Finally, long courses with considerable distances between tees and greens (modern gca); extensive natives, rough, "trash"; many bunkers, creeks, lateral water hazards; and heavily contoured, fast greens make the four hour round impossible.

Like many, I am guilty sometimes of playing to the speed (and level) of my group.  This is also a tendency within groups on the course (playing to the speed of the group in front of you).  Personally, I hate having people waiting for me, so, when things are slow and people are pushing me, I get anxious and testy.  In this regard, I think I am in a small minority.    


John Mayhugh

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2007, 03:23:19 PM »
Personally, I hate having people waiting for me, so, when things are slow and people are pushing me, I get anxious and testy.  In this regard, I think I am in a small minority.    

I am the same way.  I'll end up rushing and mess up my round, even though I'm not playing slow.

Jason McNamara

Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2007, 04:37:16 PM »

1.  How many US golfers actually have USGA handicaps, in terms of percentage.  It is quite low, isn't it?

About 33%. They must really be slow since they are slowing things down for everyone else so much.

John, is it even that high?  This GD article refers to a figure no higher than 1 in 5:
http://www.popeofslope.com/magazine/everygolfer.html

"Of the 26.2 million golfers in the United States (adults who played at least one regulation round in the past year), as calculated by the National Golf Foundation, less than 20 percent have an official handicap."

I realize there could be differing definitions of golfers in terms of rounds/year.

ps to John Mayhugh and Lou Duran:  Likewise.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 04:38:04 PM by Jason McNamara »

Lloyd_Cole

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2007, 10:24:17 PM »
Personally, I hate having people waiting for me, so, when things are slow and people are pushing me, I get anxious and testy.  In this regard, I think I am in a small minority.    

I am the same way.  I'll end up rushing and mess up my round, even though I'm not playing slow.

Gentlemen, You are not alone...

Jim Sweeney

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2007, 07:07:28 PM »
God Bless Adam Clayman.

It is time to come to the realization that niether the USGA and R&A, nor the PGAs, nor the Tours can or ever could do anything about slow play, generically speaking. The effect of seeing a better pace of play over the television is limited at best- most of the viewers just don't care, as long as the telecast stays on until the winner is determined. And they it always does.

Pace of play responsibility is and always has been on the backs of golfers. But few accept that responsibility. It is easier to blame someone else. If the Tour players wanted better pace of play they would get together and find a way to make that happen. They have an association. They should stop whining and deal with it themselves.

No more excuses. No more pushing responsility off on someone else.

Just like handicap administration inequities, pace of play problems will only be solved by active peer review.

BTW, the USGA timing station system has been a huge success in the championships in which it has been implemented, cutting up to 40 minutes off the average round in some instances. The question is when if ever it will be implemented in the opens.

As mentioned, pace of play is greatly influenced by course design. Twenty years ago to the USGA handicap department developed a "time par" system which could account for design variations (i.e., long distances between greens and tees) and come up with a reasonable expectation for how long a round should take on any course. Many state GAs offered it as an additional free service to members, but it did not gain any traction- many clubs were afraid of it because of the implication that they would have to take action against laggards.

It should be mentioned that of the 33% or 20%or whatever % of US golfers have handicaps, a large proportion of those are members of private clubs. In my experience, almost all private clubs are members of state and regional golf associations which are the primary purveyors and administrators of the system, and generally 100% of the golf members of those clubs have a USGA handicap.

I belong to three mens' associations at public courses, and the handicap rosters of all three together do not equal the rosters at any one of the four private clubs I have belonged to in my lifetime.

I don't know what that means but there must be something that can be inferred from that.

Honesty is the best policy: As a college golfer I learned how to play in 5 1/2 hours, and noone ever complained, at least very loudly. After college I had to re-learn how to not hold up my group. It was a painful lesson because they constantly let me know when I was slipping.

That is real peer review.



"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

JohnV

Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2007, 07:23:38 PM »
JV:  thanks - that's about what I thought.  And yes, funny how influential this 1/3 is.   ;)

I was going to say that if 1/3 of players with handicaps play slow due to getting a number that is one hell of a lot of slow players.  More than enough to muck up a course on any given day.

My second point is this, if the USGA system is working so well, why do only 33% of golfers have caps?  If the number is gonna be that low, you may as well adopt a system which requires peer review and mainly uses scores from comps.

Ciao

Sean, just out of curiosity, what percentage of golfers in the UK have handicaps?

JohnV

Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2007, 07:31:00 PM »

1.  How many US golfers actually have USGA handicaps, in terms of percentage.  It is quite low, isn't it?

About 33%. They must really be slow since they are slowing things down for everyone else so much.

John, is it even that high?  This GD article refers to a figure no higher than 1 in 5:
http://www.popeofslope.com/magazine/everygolfer.html

"Of the 26.2 million golfers in the United States (adults who played at least one regulation round in the past year), as calculated by the National Golf Foundation, less than 20 percent have an official handicap."

I realize there could be differing definitions of golfers in terms of rounds/year.

ps to John Mayhugh and Lou Duran:  Likewise.

Jason, I believe there are about 8 million golfers with handicaps so it would be about a third.

There are about 650,000 golfers in Northern California.  About 185,000 are members of the NCGA.  There are also women's associations that offer handicaps to quite a few.   There are other ways to get a handicap such as Golf Digest or other Type 3 clubs.  All in all it probably gets over 200,000 and possibly close to the 1/3 mark.

JohnV

Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2007, 07:35:35 PM »
BTW, the USGA timing station system has been a huge success in the championships in which it has been implemented, cutting up to 40 minutes off the average round in some instances. The question is when if ever it will be implemented in the opens.

Probably not until the PGA Tour or LPGA implements it as they wouldn't want to put a significantly different pace of play policy in effect than the one the players are used to being under.

Quote
I belong to three mens' associations at public courses, and the handicap rosters of all three together do not equal the rosters at any one of the four private clubs I have belonged to in my lifetime.


And I bet the pace of play was better at the private clubs.  But as others have said, it is just you guys with handicaps that are slowing down public courses.

Quote
Honesty is the best policy: As a college golfer I learned how to play in 5 1/2 hours, and noone ever complained, at least very loudly. After college I had to re-learn how to not hold up my group. It was a painful lesson because they constantly let me know when I was slipping.

And how many college golfers had handicaps (or at least care about them)?

Jim Sweeney

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2007, 08:24:51 PM »
JVB-

ACtually, I think we all had them when I was playing.

I would imagine it is just as true today, as they all would have had them as juniors. I doubt. however, that many are accurate. I may have been the only one to consistantly post my score.

BTW, I have always believed that keeping an accurate handicap (especially after slope) is the best way for a junior to guage his improvement, particularly if he/she is a public golfer and plays variious course. Sadly, even with free handicaps for juniors at many golf associations, far too few are enrolled, taught, and encouraged to maintain accurate handicaps.


"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

JohnV

Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2007, 09:04:17 PM »
Jim,  I agree.  But I bet most college players don't care about their handicap and it has no effect on their pace of play.

Adam Clayman

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2007, 09:15:20 PM »

Probably not until the PGA Tour or LPGA implements it as they wouldn't want to put a significantly different pace of play policy in effect than the one the players are used to being under.


John, Are you guessing here? Because, It sounds like a weak excuse for not implementing something that will take years to make an impact on the golfing public, and is of a significant nature to warrant setting the trend. No matter who it pisses off. What, Tiger won't show up because he was dinged? Not a chance.

It's the USGA's show and the competitors should have to play under their rules.

Afterall, it is, and only an open.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jason McNamara

Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2007, 11:09:43 PM »
Jason, I believe there are about 8 million golfers with handicaps so it would be about a third.

There are about 650,000 golfers in Northern California.  About 185,000 are members of the NCGA.  [...] All in all it probably gets over 200,000 and possibly close to the 1/3 mark.

Hi John -

Weird that it doesn't square with the latest NGA info (21% in 2004), but I know (obviously) you have access to good info where you are.  

Any chance 185K is the total number of handicaps (i.e. not hcp golfers)?  I ask only because if you look up a golfer on ghin.org, it will return two hcp results for one person who is a member at two clubs.  Or maybe NoCal just has a greater % age of hcp golfers.


Sean_A

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2007, 01:41:22 AM »


JV:  thanks - that's about what I thought.  And yes, funny how influential this 1/3 is.   ;)

I was going to say that if 1/3 of players with handicaps play slow due to getting a number that is one hell of a lot of slow players.  More than enough to muck up a course on any given day.

My second point is this, if the USGA system is working so well, why do only 33% of golfers have caps?  If the number is gonna be that low, you may as well adopt a system which requires peer review and mainly uses scores from comps.

Ciao

Sean, just out of curiosity, what percentage of golfers in the UK have handicaps?

John

I don't have a clue of the number of capped golfers in the UK or what is considered a "golfer".  I was very surprised to learn that only a third of golfers in the States have caps.  This number strikes me as very low.  Is there a target number the USGA hopes to reach by a certain date?

There is one aspect to consider about capping in the UK.  Nearly all competitions are run through clubs (which are nearly always members of the golf unions), the golf unions or the R&A.  So it is difficult to play in any sort of comp that doesn't require an official cap.  The non-cap players are more or less confined to friendly & society golf.  I know the EGU will give out caps to folks who are not members of clubs - you essentially become an associate member and send cards off to some hole in Calcutta for an update.  I don't know anyone that has used this system.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2007, 04:46:33 AM »

 The non-cap players are more or less confined to friendly & society golf.  I know the EGU will give out caps to folks who are not members of clubs - you essentially become an associate member and send cards off to some hole in Calcutta for an update.  I don't know anyone that has used this system.  

Ciao

Sean, it's how I started so now you know, you know one.

I have no figures for % of Golfers that carry official handicaps in UK, but I'm guessing it's probably not that different to the US.  Anecdotally, when I meet people and I discover they are a 'Golfer' the vast majority are not members of clubs. They may have a society handicap (not official), but I meet far more people who play less than 10 round a year than I do members of clubs.   Although the systems in our respective countries are very different I believe holding a handicap is one way of identifying a 'Serious Golfer' and the % of these would be very similar wherever you go.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 04:48:07 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

ed_getka

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2007, 01:15:57 PM »
One thing the 33% figure for handicapped golfers overlooks is that many golfers don't maintain a handicap because it costs money or is a pain in the arse. However, that doesn't mean the golfers without handicaps aren't influenced by the culture of those that do have them.

I don't have much first-hand exposure to what they do in the UK, but the Australian system is great (the same as UK I think). Once you have exceeded your stroke allotment you pick up because essentially you are doing match play.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 02:56:45 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Matthew MacKay

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2007, 01:54:00 PM »
If a golfer knows the system (a 10 minute read of the USGA Handicap Manual would suffice) there is absolutely no reason the handicap system will have a negative impact on the player's pace of play. In fact, as has been pointed out, ESC has probably helped the situation.

Golfers cause slow play, and American golfers tend to play slower than golfers in the UK. It has absolutely nothing to do with the differences in handicap systems.




ed_getka

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Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2007, 03:01:25 PM »
It has absolutely nothing to do with the differences in handicap systems.


Matt,
   That seems pretty definitive, could you please cite the study that backs up your statement?
    All things being equal, how is it that a golfer that holes out every time for the purpose of a score is going to play as fast as someone who picks up? Or is that the average American golfer is really fast, but just ends up taking longer because he holes out? Inquiring minds want to know. :)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tom Huckaby

Re:O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2007, 03:08:41 PM »
Ed:

Perhaps you could cite the study that says it's only golfers with handicaps who insist on holing out, here or anywhere... And also the one that definitively concludes it's because of the handicap system in place that any golfer does this....

I do think that misunderstanding and misuse of the USGA handicap system is ONE reason that SOME golfers player slower than they might.

I also believe it's a huge stretch to take this to meaning that is why all golf in the US is slow.

TH