O/T Oh, That we could all last that long..

[Bob_Huntley]

I feel that old but a still a long way to go.

I do think his comments about handicaps are well said. The USGA decries slow play but with their stupid handicap system that requires recording scores in casual match play, surely adds thirty minutes to a round.  

See:

http://tinyurl.com/2e5jtg

Bob

[Jim Sweeney]

Bob:

There is nothing in the USGA handicap system that requires a player finish a hole; it says that if any holes are begun and not finished (for example, a hole is conceded, or a partner picks up when out of a hole, or thirteen or more holes are played and the round is ended for any reason) that scores for the holes not finished must be reported for handicap purposes. There is a formula for doing so, which is simple to apply.

Hence, it is impossible for the handicap system to slow down play. In fact, it subtley encourages the player to pick up when he is out of a hole (a score for which will be creatred by formula); therefore, play may actually be sped up.

I will agree with you if you say that ignorance of how to use the system properly, i.e. the (unwarrented) belief that every hole must be played out and the score recorded, might contribute to longer rounds.

The handicap rules are simple and easy to learn. The onus for pace of play is on the players and noone or nothing else.

[Brent Hutto]

Jim,

Systems of rules both reflect and influence the social norms of the people living under them. The USGA handicap system is set up to consider every stroke of every round you ever play to be either recorded or estimated correctly as a matter of honor. Yes, there are all sorts of arcane ways of putting a number into the computer when you don't finish a hole and most people with handicaps do that at least once in a while when it's necessary.

But the bottom line is that most USGA-handicapped golfers at most clubs most weekends play their Nassau with their usual foursome as basically stroke play (for handicap purposes) except with gimme putts. A total abomination, actually, but a predictable and unavoidable unintended consequence of the idiotic and ineffectual system that we have chosen to adopt.

I play in a random-draw team game at my club every weekend. It's a Stableford-like points game and we can pick up once we're out of the hole and can't affect the team score. Yet if I've got 10-footer for double-bogey I either have to figure I'd have made it and write down double or figure I'd have missed it and write down triple. So I either vanity sandbag or actually sandbag depending on which fiction I choose to adopt. Or I could waste 60 seconds lining it up and putting it. FWIW, I never putt those and I would write down double in that case because I was playing the entire hole under the assumption that anything beyond bogey was all the same.

It's a silly system that enshrines the principle of Every Stroke is Sacred. That's what people percieve and that's how most of them act. And it does slow down play.

[Lloyd_Cole]

It's a silly system that enshrines the principle of Every Stroke is Sacred. That's what people percieve and that's how most of them act. And it does slow down play.

Seconded.

I refuse to estimate my score.

If the USGA want to expel me, too late, I quit years ago after the Casey Martin fiasco.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jim,

You are right. However, I seem to get into games where a player whose partner has already holed out to halve a hole, will insist on putting for a double bogey to ensure he does the right thing by GHIN.

It is all about knowing the ropes, so few golfers do.

Bob

[Bob_Huntley]

Brent,

As always, you have, with your scientific training hit the nail on the head. The USGA with its arcane system has ruined the game by slowing it down.

Bob  

[TEPaul]

I think what Bob is saying about the USGA Handicap System slowing down play is that it strongly encourages golfers to always post scores played in a recreational context (if enough holes are played).

Most of the handicap systems in the rest of the world don't do that---they essentially use things like a monthly medal round for handicap purposes.

The USGA's system is into "quantity" score posting while the rest of the world seems to be into "quality" score posting like the monthly "medal" round.

But I'll tell you one thing. I've never seen slower play than some of the hackers on the other side playing their monthly "medal round" from the tips. The only good news I could see is they only do that about once a month.

The rest of the time there's no reason not to pick up because they can't post a score for handicap purposes anyway.

[Rick Shefchik]

That still seems like a preferable system to me -- play slow once a month, pick it up and move on the rest of the year.

[Rich Goodale]

Rick

It's even better than that!  Firstly, there are usually 4-6 "monthly" medals at most clubs plus hundreds of open competitions at other clubs, so the quantity issue cited by TEP is really a non-issue.   Secondly, in my experience-- 500-1000 "medal" rounds in the UK and Ireland--50% of those were played in 3 1/2 hours or less, another 40% in under 4 hours.  When the pace gets near 4 1/2 hours people walk off the course or jump off the cliffs in despair.

What Tom Paul knows about golf in the UK and Ireland could be written on the head of a pin with a magic marker.  Listen to him carefully when he is talking about Fireball Roberts or North Shore debutantes in the early 60's, but outside of those two spheres it is always Caveat Lector.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sigh.  Here we go, round 78 in the great battle over handicap systems.

Given there's no way I can ever convince Rich Goodale or Sean Arble of anything about this, these questions are for Rick Shefchik and Bob Huntley (and any others with open minds) ONLY:

1.  How many US golfers actually have USGA handicaps, in terms of percentage.  It is quite low, isn't it?

2. Of those who do have handicaps, how many would actually participate in a monthly medal?

In the answers to these questions lie my retorts to Sean and Rich - and their cohort Pete Lavalee - whenever this issue arises.  And arise it does, about quarterly.

Their system works well for them.  Their system would not work for us.  Our system if applied correctly works just fine.  

Now as for slow play, there are many many many reasons rounds take longer here than there; a devotion to holing out each hole is just one of them - and to me a pretty minor one at that.  Our courses are designed to take longer, our courses are typically way more crowded, and for whatever reason Americans seem more slavishly devoted to acting like tour pros... those are far more important reasons for slow play here than anything the USGA has done, or failed to do.

TH

[JohnV]

1.  How many US golfers actually have USGA handicaps, in terms of percentage.  It is quite low, isn't it?

About 33%. They must really be slow since they are slowing things down for everyone else so much.

[Tom Huckaby]

JV:  thanks - that's about what I thought.  And yes, funny how influential this 1/3 is.  

[Pete Lavallee]

Huck,

You can take Jim Sweeny, I'm glad we got Sir Robert on our side!

[Tom Huckaby]

Pete:

Hmmmm.... are you sure Bob is on your side?

TH

[Adam Clayman]

Slow Play has but one reason for being, The Self-centered inconsiderate.
 It has nothing to do with tee time intervals or the USGA system.
Since golf is not an exact science, and, the rules do allow 5 minutes to look for a lost ball, it is then the onus of the considerate golfer to make up the pace lost, when one inadvertently falls behind.

[Bob_Huntley]

Slow Play has but one reason for being, The Self-centered inconsiderate.
 It has nothing to do with tee time intervals or the USGA system.
Since golf is not an exact science, and, the rules do allow 5 minutes to look for a lost ball, it is then the onus of the considerate golfer to make up the pace lost, when one inadvertently falls behind.

Adam,

You are partially right, however, the pencil must record mentality takes most of the cake..

Bob

[Rick Shefchik]

Huck,

I'm looking at this issue from a slightly different angle these days, since joining a club this spring. Roughly 100 percent of my 400 fellow members have handicaps.

[Dan King]

John Vander Borght writes:
About 33%. They must really be slow since they are slowing things down for everyone else so much.

If 33 percent of the golfers are playing slow, how fast do you think all the other golfers get to play?

I've been saying it for years, the USGA is one culprit when it comes to slow play, but a very significant one. They need to take the damn computers out of golf shops and tell their membership to start playing golf instead of collecting numbers.

The PGA Tour® could also do their part insisting their members play golf is 3½ or less. It would make the game more enjoyable to watch and encourage others to follow their example.

Cheers,
Grandan King

There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that golf as played in the United States is the slowest in the world.
 --Henry Longhurst

[Bob_Huntley]

A few years ago, I persuaded our foursome to follow the continuous putting rule. When you think that most players fiddle and fart arse about when lining up and then making the stroke takes the best part of thirty to forty seconds, it would seem this would get things moving.

It worked, hoever as I am the only one remaining of that foursome and my powers of persuasion are lost on the current whipper-snappers, the idea has been abandoned.

Bob

[Lloyd_Cole]

The PGA Tour® could also do their part insisting their members play golf is 3½ or less. It would make the game more enjoyable to watch and encourage others to follow their example.

Dan, But then we couldn't have a commercial break every other shot..

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck,

I'm looking at this issue from a slightly different angle these days, since joining a club this spring. Roughly 100 percent of my 400 fellow members have handicaps.

Rick:  fair enough.  But you remain the minority.

Just think of it this way also, though:  how many of those 100% would enjoy having their handicap based solely on a monthly medal?  How many would WANT no other rounds to count?

If one grows up with this as the only way to do things, and it's normal to one, then it works.  You know no other way.

But if one is used to every round counting, well....

I still don't see it working very well.  Many won't make the monthly medal, many will complain that their handicap "never changes."

Thus again, it works well over there.  It won't work well here.  We're not ingrained in it.

[Dan King]

Tom Huckaby writes:
Thus again, it works well over there.  It won't work well here.  We're not ingrained in it.

That's right, lets not try to change anything. They are ingrained to like boring, flat, slow golf courses, so why try to change it? They like to be lied to in books they read, so lets not worry about it. They want to bomb Iran, so lets not tell them about intelligence reports that say Iran isn't the threat they thought it was. Let's not try to get people to change ingrained habits just because it will improve golf for everyone.

That makes just as much sense as thinking lies about Mackenzie's early career is trivial while lies about his late career is a problem.

Lloyd_Cole writes:
Dan, But then we couldn't have a commercial break every other shot..

I'm thinking they will figure out someway to get in enough words from their sponsors.

Cheers,
Grandan King

Cyril Walker played so slowly they asked him to hurry up, and he became abusive. He said, "Who the hell are you? I'm, an ex-U.S. Open Champion." This was about 1931, he won the Open in 1924. He said he came out 3,000 miles to play in their diddy-bump tournament (L.A. Open), and they couldn't kick him out, he'd play as slow as he damn well pleased. Well, when he came ot the ninth hole, they told him he was disqualified and he said, "The hell I am! I came here to play and I'm going to play." So these two officers picked him up by the elbows and I can still see him being carried up the hill, kicking his legs like a banty -- he was a small man.
 --Paul Runyan

[Sean_A]

JV:  thanks - that's about what I thought.  And yes, funny how influential this 1/3 is.  

I was going to say that if 1/3 of players with handicaps play slow due to getting a number that is one hell of a lot of slow players.  More than enough to muck up a course on any given day.

My second point is this, if the USGA system is working so well, why do only 33% of golfers have caps?  If the number is gonna be that low, you may as well adopt a system which requires peer review and mainly uses scores from comps.

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Grandan:

Fight the fight, friend.   Your principles remain admirable, and I wish I had the energy to share them.  Sadly I do not, and I live with the realities life gives me.

Thus I don't care what Mackenzie did in England, but I do care what he did within 100 miles of my home.

Thus I see problems in golf, but rather than bitch and moan about them and/or try to change them, I look for ways to live with them.

I also don't equate anything about golf with bombs in Iran.

I've said it many many times - your way is more admirable.

Funny thing is, I think we're both pretty happy how we are.  Or at least I know I am.  And I've always found you to be a very happy guy...

Peace.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

JV:  thanks - that's about what I thought.  And yes, funny how influential this 1/3 is.  

I was going to say that if 1/3 of players with handicaps play slow due to getting a number that is one hell of a lot of slow players.  More than enough to muck up a course on any given day.

My second point is this, if the USGA system is working so well, why do only 33% of golfers have caps?  If the number is gonna be that low, you may as well adopt a system which requires peer review and mainly uses scores from comps.

Ciao

Sean:  like I said, the questions weren't for you.  I've given up convincing you.

Peace.