Golf Digests Best New 2007 is out

[Matt_Ward]

What's amazing is that Nicklaus has won in the range of 5-6 times with the Best New -- in 2006 he claimed The Concession, if memory serves. But not even a sniff with Dismal River !

The next thing that makes me chuckle is that Ballyneal didn't even finish in the top five private last year -- but 3 Creek Ranch did. That's very funny.

Like I said -- there's no consistency to what comes forward but it's likely attributable to the fact that different people are rating different courses and the sum results often are nothing more than pure chance you'll be picked or not picked.

[Andy Troeger]

I only played one new private that opened in 2007 - a course called Ravenna just southwest of Denver. A Jay Morrish course. Did any of you magazine panelists even play it? Not sure that it could keep up with the likes of Sebonack or CGC, but I'd be interested in the opinions of those who rank.

Kirk,
Not sure when Ravenna opened but I'm guessing it will be a candidate next year. I remember you had posted about it before but I don't remember seeing it on our list. I'd be interested in playing it next summer if I get a chance to head up that way.

Matt,
I agree that there's an effect on who plays what course, there's not many guys that have the opportunity to travel to all the top contenders in any one year. I think Ron W. alluded to that in his accompanying article being discussed on the other thread. Courses in some cases tend to take awhile to find their place once enough raters have visited. With only 10 raters, most of whom may not see all other contenders, one or two poor ballots can drastically sway a course's placement without a doubt.

That said, there's more to it than "pure chance." We all probably can name courses we think should have been higher or lower.

[Jed Peters]

Greg:

I was going to ask the same question.  The only private clubs I've heard of lately with an initiation below $25,000 (in the USA) are clubs that are desperately struggling to attract members.  Low-priced memberships aren't in anybody's business plan.

In fact, to have $25,000 memberships you'd have to have at least 400 members unless you are building on sand in an area of low-priced real estate, or they are willing to go without a clubhouse.

Tom:

I belong to a pretty highly praised kyle phillips design here in the Sacramento area.

Our memberships are 36k (full), 12k (associate), and annuals (varying).

We only have 262 members.

We do not have a full clubhouse, real estate is hurting, and the owners are bleeding.

That being said, it's a FANTASTIC golf course at a "you can't beat it" price.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jed:

That gave me a good chuckle... your club is a pretty good deal for here in CA.. but ONLY here in CA would those prices qualify as "you can't beat it."

They kick ass on anything near here in San Jose in any case!

Prices for private clubs here remain obscene.

TH

[jeffwarne]

1. SEBONACK G.C. • Southampton, N.Y. • Yards 7,481 • Par 72 • Designers: Jack Nicklaus and Tom Doak • Initiation Fee: $650,000-PLUS • sebonack.com


$650,000 - That's obscene.

Jack,
In September, the owner of The Bridge offered 5 memberships at $850,000. They were gone in a weekend with several upset that they were not among the five.
My guess is that $650,000 # for Sebonack is a bit dated.

There is a lot of money out there.

[Nick Church]

1. SEBONACK G.C. • Southampton, N.Y. • Yards 7,481 • Par 72 • Designers: Jack Nicklaus and Tom Doak • Initiation Fee: $650,000-PLUS • sebonack.com


$650,000 - That's obscene.

Jack,
In September, the owner of The Bridge offered 5 memberships at $850,000. They were gone in a weekend with several upset that they were not among the five.
My guess is that $650,000 # for Sebonack is a bit dated.

There is a lot of money out there.

I agree.  The market allows for this price.  It may not fit into my (our) reality, but nonetheless it exists.

For examples elsewhere, look at exotic cars, real estate (Carmel, CA), jewlery, and art.  Didn't a statue sell for $65MM today?!?

Again, not MY reality, but I won't begrudge anyone else for spending what's theirs.

[Nick Church]

Editorial Caveat:

Should those that spend $650K on a golf membership then find themselves in dire straits down the road, better not ever put their hand out for public subsidy.  

Remember the grasshopper fable, yes?

[jeffwarne]

Does that apply to those who spend that for a boat, art, a second home,jewelry?

I guess the developer of Sebonack could charge $25,000
(that seems to be what's politically acceptable)
for memberships and have 5000 members .(or go broke).

[Jeff_Brauer]

The upper end markets just keep going up and up. I think part of it is they want to pay more to belong to the very best.  Not much snob appeal at lower prices, eh?

The mid and lower club markets that are more subject to supply and demand have wildly fluctuating price ranges.  Here in DFW, they survey them every so often in the local papers, and $50K clubs dropped to $5K at the first recession signs, and then back up with the stock market.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

The whole issue of cost is really irrelevant and only standing in the way of what Sebonack offers as a course. You will always have guys bitching and moaning about cost and then being fast to point out that other courses nearby are far less costly and that much more of a golf design than Sebonack.

Big freakin deal.

For those who may not realize it -- the NYC area has some really deeeeeeeeeeeeep pockets and when you see what you do get it truly is impressive. Granted I won't be applying membership anytime soon but the totality of what the course is about and more importantly, where it's located, can push the cost to the level one sees today. If The Bridge can get what it got -- then Sebonack can certainly do likewise.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Gents:

The whole issue of cost is really irrelevant and only standing in the way of what Sebonack offers as a course. You will always have guys bitching and moaning about cost and then being fast to point out that other courses nearby are far less costly and that much more of a golf design than Sebonack.

Big freakin deal.

For those who may not realize it -- the NYC area has some really deeeeeeeeeeeeep pockets and when you see what you do get it truly is impressive. Granted I won't be applying membership anytime soon but the totality of what the course is about and more importantly, where it's located, can push the cost to the level one sees today. If The Bridge can get what it got -- then Sebonack can certainly do likewise.

I think you are right that initiation fees or deposits are irrelevant in terms of course quality and the NY area has deeeeeep pockets.  I have friends with significant pockets.  For those of us with shallow pockets the cost just boggle the mind.  that's all.  It isn't so much whining as it is amazement.  But then again the pocket is in the eye of the beholder.  

[Garland Bayley]

Greg:

I was going to ask the same question.  The only private clubs I've heard of lately with an initiation below $25,000 (in the USA) are clubs that are desperately struggling to attract members.  Low-priced memberships aren't in anybody's business plan.

In fact, to have $25,000 memberships you'd have to have at least 400 members unless you are building on sand in an area of low-priced real estate, or they are willing to go without a clubhouse.

Perhaps one way low cost privates come about is the overbuilding of high cost publics. The high cost publics don't make it, their value drops a huge amount, and someone comes in and turns it private.

[Mike Sweeney]

A typical members house in The Hamptons is 4-15 million
The scale is a bit different.

In 2006, the average Town of Southampton, NY home traded for $1.3 mm, and the median was $829,000, thus the overwhelming number of houses traded below $600,000.

http://www.corcoran.com/guides/pdf/YearEnd-Hamptons2006.pdf

[Mike Sweeney]

Jack,
In September, the owner of The Bridge offered 5 memberships at $850,000. They were gone in a weekend with several upset that they were not among the five.
My guess is that $650,000 # for Sebonack is a bit dated.

There is a lot of money out there.

Jeff,

Yes but that number is due to a number of factors including the other clubs keeping the initiations artificially low (from a market perspective) in that they don't really trade (you can't get in) and when they do trade, a club like Southampton with an initiation probably 5% of The Bridge is not going to let a Manhattan based hedge fund guy in.

Sebonack has a real estate component, so it is in a separate category from the other Southampton clubs.

[John Kavanaugh]

It is my understanding that Sebonack has become a full time time share with free golf to boot.  It is actually quite the deal for those invited to join.

[Mike Sweeney]

It is my understanding that Sebonack has become a full time time share with free golf to boot.  It is actually quite the deal for those invited to join.

If you play less than 14 days a year, and send out unescorted guest who pay you "rent", you could potentially 1031 it and play tax free golf on the IRS! I don't think I would want to be the test case, but.......  

[Jim Nugent]

A typical members house in The Hamptons is 4-15 million
The scale is a bit different.

In 2006, the average Town of Southampton, NY home traded for $1.3 mm, and the median was $829,000, thus the overwhelming number of houses traded below $600,000.

http://www.corcoran.com/guides/pdf/YearEnd-Hamptons2006.pdf

Mike, based on the facts you gave in your post, there's no way to know what price the majority of homes sold for.  All we can say is that about half the home sold for less than 829, and half for more.  It's impossible to say if any home sold for less than 600.  

But if by "overwhelming number" you mean a majority, you are definitely wrong.  Can't be any more than half.  

Also, the report you linked says average sale prices were in the $2 to $4 million range, for several cities there.  

[jeffwarne]

Mike,
I live here in The Hamptons. and I'm a member of Southampton so I'm pretty aware of the demographics.
I know what a house costs.
The town of Southampton includes parts of Riverhead(hardly The Hamptons, and goes all the way to East Hampton)
Your  figure includes the areas in such places as Appalachia by the sea (the strech of houses in Noyac with 10-15 houses per ACRE).or the drug infested shacks near Bridgehampton and Riverhead.
If you think you can buy a decent house out here for  below $600,000-good luck

More importantly I said the average MEMBERS's house.(speaking of the newer clubs)
and my figure is actually rediculously low as one client of mine just spent 30 million to buy his next door neighbor's house (on 5 acres on the ocean) to knock it down and have me put in a short game practice area.
His house is probably worth twice that as it's got ocean on one side, bay on the other and has several large structures.
The total may be 90 million between the two properties.

and that doesn't include Ira Rennert's 110,000 square foot house on 64 acres on the ocean. 80 million-100 million???
or the 40 million a 45 year old hedge fund is spending on a house a friend of mine is building.

Still think your averages are accurate?

And the fact that the old money memberships don't trade as you state(code for Jews need not apply) is another reason the demand for new clubs is so great.
As a member of mine said about the initial price The Bridge went for  ($500,000) "It's just a media room"

[bstark]

 ;)"If you play less than 14 days a year, and send out unescorted guest who pay you "rent", you could potentially 1031 it and play tax free golf on the IRS! I don't think I would want to be the test case, but....... "  

  You're a genius Sweens.

[Mike Sweeney]

jeff and jim

i am just trying to present for those not from here that there is or maybe was a side of the hamptons beyond spielberg and hedge funds.  if southampton gc is not the best deal in private golf what is ?

[jeffwarne]

Southampton is only a deal if you can get in.

although recent "improvements" have shortened the list as the price has inevitably risen.

Palmetto is a better deal.

[Tom_Doak]

Sebonack does have a second class of memberships which includes a certain amount of use of one of the cottages on site.  I stayed in one of the cottages during the member-guest; I wish my own home was as nice as that.  But, that's why they list their membership fee at $650,000 PLUS ... the membership which includes cottage use is substantially more expensive.

[SB]

The fact is there are a lot of people out there with a cr@pload of money.  And if you think you can spend a lot of money on your golf addiction, just run over and see how boaters have it.  You can drop a cool million on a boat without really getting much at all.  Your annual "dues" include the $20 grand a year to store it, god knows how much in gas, plus the annual maintenance is obscene.  And this is for your average 60' boat, which is big, but not too crazy.  Go up to a 100' boat (which is the Sebonack league), and you're talking a $5M "initiation fee", $100 grand a year in dues, and that's before you pay the three or four people you need to maintain the boat.  And don't get me started on planes.  Seriously, even at these prices, golf is fairly reasonable compared to other hobbies.

More importantly, congratulations to our own Ian Andrew for best new Canadian at Muskoka Bay.  Truly an amazing place with an incredibly difficult site.  And for the record, I like hole #9, although my birdie there helped.

[jeffwarne]

Compared to yachting and horses golf in the Hamptons seems like a bargain

The amazing thing is after Atlantic sold out in the early 90's
(charging the amazingly "obscene" $100,000 initiation in the beginning-1992)  there were quite a few billionaires and hundreds of hundred millinaires with nowhere to play golf in The Hamptons.

East Hampton, The Bridge, and Friar's Head (not really a Hampton's option unless you live in Southampton or Westhampton)opened 2001,02,and 03 respectively ,
but prior to that there were a lot of wealthy people who simply had no place to play short of driving 20-50 minutes(double that in the summer traffic )
to play mediocre golf.

Southampton had a waiting list of about 500 people in the late 90's (and of course that list was longer for some than others   as it's a locals only club for the most part)

Talk about the perfect supply demand equation.

The amazing thing is you can play a fun 9 holer on Shelter Island for $9
and there's a 9 holer in Sag Harbor for a simalar amount , as well as a reasonably priced private (Southampton)so the locals are OK

[Matt_Ward]

Frankly all the talk about the .00000001 percent of people who play in such reclusive places fails to excite me in the same manner by which Digest lists the best affordable layouts for $75 and under.

No doubt there's plenty of rightful fanfare attached to Sebonack -- the place is truly a marvel to see and play -- but it's even more beneficial to get good information on other places in which quality architecture and price can still be married together.

It's a shame the Northeast doesn't facilitate many of these layouts because of scarce land and the propensity to create mega private layouts because of the sheer $$$ involved -- both to create and to get.