Golf Digests Best New 2007 is out

[Jason Connor]

How many members does Seabonack plan to have?

Congrats to Tom Doak, well deserved, I'm sure.

[Mike Erdmann]

I was surprised to not see Chambers Bay on the Best Public over $75, but of course it may have opened after the cutoff.  Anyone know exactly when the cutoff is?

[Doug Ralston]

So, we have a tad over 1.4 mil to join the 8 who disclose their initiations.

Art Hills and Drew Rogers must feel lke pikers.

What's that saying, 50 is the new 40? Looks like 100k is the new 10k.  

As I often have said: Welcome to Kentucky, were great golf can be had for a 'pittance' [public and now privates  ]

Doug

[J_ Crisham]

Sadly, Sebonack while a fine golf course, at 350K  would be a greater cost than 5 courses that are arguably as good or better in the area:          National Golf LInks, Shinnecock, Friars Head, Garden City, and Fishers Island.

[jeffwarne]

Try acquiring the land for any of them now (with the exception of Friar's Head) building the course ,and clubhouses of each, and charging less.

What exactly do you mean by "sadly"?

[J_ Crisham]

Jeff, 250 members hypothetically at 650K is roughly 160million.Are you suggesting the cost to build the above mentioned course would equate to this figure? If in fact it does, then it is a surprise to other numbers I have seen regarding land purchases and developments. Obviously this is property that is in one of the highest markets in the world. My point is the 5 clubs I listed are less expensive and arguably as good or better-hence the usage of the word sadly. I sense I have struck a nerve here- I don't expect you to agree with me it's simply my opinion.

[Sean Leary]

I was surprised to not see Chambers Bay on the Best Public over $75, but of course it may have opened after the cutoff.  Anyone know exactly when the cutoff is?

 Hi Mike,

I looked at that as well. Cutoff was April 30, 2007. CB opened after that.  

Based on that cutoff the year before, I wonder why Ballyneal was on last years list ( and how it would have done this year). The official opening wasn't until Summer 2006

[Tom Dunne]

I'm with Andy Troeger, if We-Ko-Pa Saguaro is the 9th best new course in its category, then I'm acclaimed Chinese-American novelist Ha Jin.

The fun part of GD's package on this is the slide show going back 25 years. Check out the flower-arrangement at Sentry World in 1983--some of the early shots are a good reminder of how much interesting architecture is out there today. Ron Whitten's piece that accompanies it and sketches out the past quarter century is good, too.

[jeffwarne]

Jack,
Sebonack land was 46 million-8 years ago.
Clubhouse 15 million?
cottages 3-7 million?
course ?
150 members is more the working # in the Hamptons.
Atlantic had crowding issues at peak times at 180 members-short intense season with lots of house guests.
so you get 65 million less than the $160 million.

Many of the founders get their money back as well

A typical members house in The Hamptons is 4-15 million
The scale is a bit different.

My gues is Shinnecock and National etc. charged as much as the market would bear when initially conceived.
Once paid for they merely needed to cover operating and future capital expenses.

[Andy Troeger]

I'm with Andy Troeger, if We-Ko-Pa Saguaro is the 9th best new course in its category, then I'm acclaimed Chinese-American novelist Ha Jin.

Tom,
I just wanted to preserve the first four words of your post. I'm not sure I've ever seen them in that order in terms of someone agreeing with something I've said  

I'm surprised it didn't win, let alone coming in 9th! I'm also curious as to how many new public remodels there were this year...I played two of them but don't have a good handle on what #3 and #4 in that category really mean. French Lick was a better course to begin with than either one of the other two were after which is not to negate any of them as they are fine courses.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The thing that strikes me about the Best New is the wealth of some of the folks in this country.  How can a new private with a $25,000 initiation fee compete with those big dollar courses?  $25,000 isn't peanuts either.  The interesting thing is that a number of the big dollar courses have members who are members of other big dollar courses. I know the suggestion of a category of bes new under $50,000 was tongue in cheek, but I would like to know about some of the less expensive private clubs.

[Matt_Cohn]

a wtf bunker at Madison Club (picture from their promo video):

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

GD's listing is nothing more then consensus. Frankly, the courses that have NOT won the top honors in years past would make for a more compelling listing of courses than those that have. Check out competition the year Black Rock won for Jim Engh in the private category a few years back. Ditto the omission of Kingsley Club.

Far too often the winner(s) come from having the advantage in getting "x" number of panelists to visit.

No doubt the title bestowed by Digest does help the marquee value of the winners but the results need to be kept in some sort of context.

[Jerry Kluger]

Congrats to Lester George for his work at the Greenbrier - from everything I've heard it is well deserved.

[Doug Wright]

Although GCA.com member Rick Phelps probably doesn't care, GD should fix its list to correctly name the architects for these courses, who were Rick Phelps (not his father Dick) and Kevin Atkinson of Phelps-Atkinson Golf Design:

Public $75+ 7. THE G.C. AT DEVILS TOWER • Hulett, Wyo. • Yards 7,111 • Par 72 • Fee: $95 • Kevin Atkinson and Dick Phelps

Remodel:  SIERRA DEL RIO G. CSE. • Elephant Butte, N.M. • Yards 7,331 • Par 72 • Fee: $65 • Dick Phelps

PS How do they get away with a $95 course in Hulett, Wyoming?

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

If memory serves when I played Devils Tower -- the $95 fee was for folks who are not members of the club or live in the immediate Hulett area.

[George Pazin]

How can a new private with a $25,000 initiation fee compete with those big dollar courses?

Tommy (if I may call you that), I'd say it depends on what you mean by compete.

Can you get a GD list making course? Maybe not, a course with $25,000 initiation probably doesn't have enough bells and whistles aside from the golf to make it.

Can you get a superior golf course? Sure, you just need to hire a Tom D-type before he becomes a big name, and don't build your club in prime real estate. There's probably a bunch of guys out there that could easily design/build a great golf club for a modest initiation - some of them probably even post on here!

[Rick Phelps]

Hi Doug!

I just wanted to clarify the credits given on the two projects.  

Sierra del Rio, besides being a terrible name for the golf course, is a "shot at redemption" for my dad.  He is properly credited with the design work on a project that he initially designed back in the mid 1970's.  The original course (The Oasis) was in financial trouble from the very beginning and finally went through bankruptcy/foreclosure in about 2001.  The new owner brought Dick back in to completely redesign the course and, I'm fairly certain, they are very pleased with the results!

As for Devil's Tower -- another long story!  We were first brought in to help them with the original nine holes there in about 1998.  The design was done "in house" and was not very good, but the course construction work was already about 60% complete.  We tried to salvage what we could, but there was only so much we could do.  Dick and I both worked on that project at that time.  We did some routing studies for them to expand to 18 holes, with additional modifications to the original 9, but they put that plan on the shelf for a few years.  Once they decided to move forward with the new 9, Kevin and Dick worked together to get the new and remodeled holes designed.  Kevin ended up doing the bulk of the work from our office and deserves the "lion's share" of the credit for a great job!

So, GD has it all right in the "credit" department.  I'm just stuck waiting for three stalled projects to move so I can take a crack at the list again in the future.

Rick

[Doug Wright]

Hi Doug!

I just wanted to clarify the credits given on the two projects.  

Sierra del Rio, besides being a terrible name for the golf course, is a "shot at redemption" for my dad.  He is properly credited with the design work on a project that he initially designed back in the mid 1970's.  The original course (The Oasis) was in financial trouble from the very beginning and finally went through bankruptcy/foreclosure in about 2001.  The new owner brought Dick back in to completely redesign the course and, I'm fairly certain, they are very pleased with the results!

As for Devil's Tower -- another long story!  We were first brought in to help them with the original nine holes there in about 1998.  The design was done "in house" and was not very good, but the course construction work was already about 60% complete.  We tried to salvage what we could, but there was only so much we could do.  Dick and I both worked on that project at that time.  We did some routing studies for them to expand to 18 holes, with additional modifications to the original 9, but they put that plan on the shelf for a few years.  Once they decided to move forward with the new 9, Kevin and Dick worked together to get the new and remodeled holes designed.  Kevin ended up doing the bulk of the work from our office and deserves the "lion's share" of the credit for a great job!

So, GD has it all right in the "credit" department.  I'm just stuck waiting for three stalled projects to move so I can take a crack at the list again in the future.

Rick

Aha! From the horse's mouth. I stand corrected. At least I brought you out or the woodwork Rick!

[Tommy Williamsen]

How can a new private with a $25,000 initiation fee compete with those big dollar courses?

Tommy (if I may call you that), I'd say it depends on what you mean by compete.

Can you get a GD list making course? Maybe not, a course with $25,000 initiation probably doesn't have enough bells and whistles aside from the golf to make it.

Can you get a superior golf course? Sure, you just need to hire a Tom D-type before he becomes a big name, and don't build your club in prime real estate. There's probably a bunch of guys out there that could easily design/build a great golf club for a modest initiation - some of them probably even post on here!

George, I was called Tommy until I was 21 when I wanted to be called Tom.  When I turned 50, many years ago I wanted Tommy again.  Even the little kids at my church call me Pastor Tommy.  I kinda like it.

I agree that there are some on this site that build some wonderful courses.  They don't always get the recognition they deserve.  It just seems that the private winners are almost always the most expensive as well.

[George Pazin]

It just seems that the private winners are almost always the most expensive as well.

That's the beauty of free markets.

Or the ugliness, depending on which side you're on.

[Garland Bayley]

... It just seems that the private winners are almost always the most expensive as well.

That might say something about the psyche of the raters that get on those bastions of affluence.

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Rick!  Nice to see you swinging on a treehouse vine!

[PCCraig]

I thought best private renovation was a bit off. I have played both TPC boston and bellerive a few times before and after the renovations this past year. And while TPC is far far better than it was, it still has a long way to go to being anything special. bellerive was a very good golf course before, and is a great course now. I would watch out for an Open there within 10 years.

[PThomas]

Pat - pls tell us more why you liked Bellerive so much, thanks..i have never played there, btw