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Jay Flemma

What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« on: December 03, 2007, 10:08:44 PM »
OK, we all must have them...courses we like that are really low for architectural value, but resonate with us for other reasons.  Maybe it's your old home course or maybe you vacationed there as a kid, or maybe you just had a good time...lets name three and tell why we like them despite the architecture.  Here's mine:

1)  Coeur D'Alene

I know, I know, its artificial, gimmicky, too short, too tight, overly marketed...but you know what?  I had a great time there at a great price!  I went in may and for $199 I got a huge suite and golf.  They now offer thet same package for $109 per person...that's a great deal.  You know what else?  The grass was THAT GREEN, the water was THAT blue, the food was great and they treated us like gold.  In fact, when we played a replay after 4, they gave us carts with car stereos so that Phish music was blaring while we played.  (I still walked...nancy drove the buggy).  They had the green in motion for us on 14!

2)  The Concord (Monster) - My dad taught my mom to play here.  She never swung a club in her life, but 40 minutes of practice on the range and she was playing and she got good quick.  We took the same summer vaca for 12 years...8 days, 7 nights...golf all day, swim all afternoon, lox and matza ball soup (yes, I'm catholic and I eat lox), and meeting girls in the evening.  CRapy shows on saturday like Florence Henderson singing sir duke.   When she walked out singing "You can feel it all ooooover!" my dad snarled "I'll be in the card room.  I htnk of a million things to do rather than watch this BS!"

3.  Ventana canyon - its got great vegetation. and it was 36 holes and a room for $199 a day.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2007, 10:12:37 PM »
OK, we all must have them...courses we like that are really low for architectural value, but resonate with us for other reasons.  Maybe it's your old home course or maybe you vacationed there as a kid, or maybe you just had a good time...lets name three and tell why we like them despite the architecture.  Here's mine:

1)  Coeur D'Alene

I know, I know, its artificial, gimmicky, too short, too tight, overly marketed...but you know what?  I had a great time there at a great price!  I went in may and for $199 I got a huge suite and golf.  They now offer thet same package for $109 per person...that's a great deal.  You know what else?  The grass was THAT GREEN, the water was THAT blue, the food was great and they treated us like gold.  In fact, when we played a replay after 4, they gave us carts with car stereos so that Phish music was blaring while we played.  (I still walked...nancy drove the buggy).  They had the green in motion for us on 14!

2)  The Concord (Monster) - My dad taught my mom to play here.  She never swung a club in her life, but 40 minutes of practice on the range and she was playing and she got good quick.  We took the same summer vaca for 12 years...8 days, 7 nights...golf all day, swim all afternoon, lox and matza ball soup (yes, I'm catholic and I eat lox), and meeting girls in the evening.  CRapy shows on saturday like Florence Henderson singing sir duke.   When she walked out singing "You can feel it all ooooover!" my dad snarled "I'll be in the card room.  I htnk of a million things to do rather than watch this BS!"

3.  Ventana canyon - its got great vegetation. and it was 36 holes and a room for $199 a day.

Jay,

I kind of alluded to this in a prior thread about guilty pleasures.  Courses that we just love, that maybe others would scoff at.

Having played CDA I can 2nd that one.  Agreed 14th is gimmicky, but there are some very nice holes out there, and the greens are like putting on a wood gym floor.  Closest thing to ANGC at Masters time that I've ever played.  Throw in the 2nd to none conditioning and the amazing views and its just a super fun day on the course.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 10:27:20 PM »
I'll take a shot:

1) Twisted Dunes, NJ. Links style. Qualified for my first MGA event here!

2) Troon North. My first desert course.

3) Old Head. Thought it was great, until I found this website and learned it was just a "dumb blonde" not a classic beauty :(

Phil_the_Author

Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2007, 10:33:23 PM »
Merrick Road Park golf course, Merrick, Long Island.

Built on every bit of a disgusting landfill on a bay of the south shore. More sea gulls, feathers, droppings and geese during migrations.

It is also where I played my first nine holes of golf.

Right before teeing off my father said to me, "Whatever you do, if you are going to hit a good shot, do it here at the first tee... Don't embarrass me."

210 yards just past the little bunker on the left corner of the fairway. Everyone clapped and cheered in the 6 groups waiting to tee off behind us.

I topped shot #2...

Ahhhh... memories...  

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2007, 10:55:27 PM »
I wouldn't call it my 'secret shame' because I don't think the architecture is that bad.

Douglaston Golf Club. Has a really good mix of par 4's, blind shots as well makes for some fun golf.

Grew up playing on the course. My buddies and I would get dropped off at 7am and stay until dark. We would spin all day in hopes to get in a skins game with some of the older guys. We paid $7.50, Bethpage chared us $26.00, so forget them.

The course has gone through different owners in the past decade and as a result some things have changed.

There was one point around 2000-2003(i think), the fairways were getting tight and the rough was getting long---rumor said that they wouldn't buy the greenskeeper new mowing equipment, so he said F them and let things grow and get a bit tighter.

I haven't been back in 4 years, but hope to very soon.

I just hope it stays the same, and some assholes don't come in and jack up the prices, make riding mandatory and "Marriot Golf-A-NIZE" it.  
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 11:50:55 PM by M. Shea Sweeney »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2007, 11:00:39 PM »
The New Course at Grand Cypress......
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2007, 11:34:55 PM »
Merrick Road Park golf course, Merrick, Long Island.

Built on every bit of a disgusting landfill on a bay of the south shore. More sea gulls, feathers, droppings and geese during migrations.

It is also where I played my first nine holes of golf.

Ahhhh... memories...  

Ditto!

But we learned to love playing golf in the wind, right Phil?
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Phil_the_Author

Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2007, 11:50:23 PM »
Gene, then you can definitely appreciate that what made that drive even sweeter was that my 16-month older brother, a left-hander with a bad temper who 'grew up' to be a cabbie on the island, followed me with the largest slice ever seen then or since.

He took out a window in a house across the inlet!

Never has a younger brother enjoyed ragging on an older one nor endured such a beating when out of parents site for doing so! It was worth it...

By the way Gene, did they ever put in the long-rumored back nine?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 11:51:50 PM by Philip Young »


tlavin

Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2007, 10:37:44 AM »
The New Course at Grand Cypress......

Good call!  It's tantamount to gca heresy, treason or some other indictable offense.

Mine is Shadow Creek.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2007, 10:56:48 AM »
I'll take a shot:

1) Twisted Dunes, NJ.

Bill, I'm curious about this choice.  Is Twisted Dune really devoid of architectural value?  Jay prescribes in this thread to list, "courses we like that are really low for architectural value".

I haven't played it and absolutlely 100% value your right to your opinion of said course.   I am curious because fellow GCA'er Archie Struthers designed and built this club and it's my understanding that he poured himself and his ideas into it.  Did he fail architecturally in your eyes, or is it the 'faux links' badge, or something else?  

I'd love to know why Twisted Dune is considered your "secret shame" !


Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2007, 11:11:14 AM »
Merrick Road Park golf course, Merrick, Long Island.

Built on every bit of a disgusting landfill on a bay of the south shore. More sea gulls, feathers, droppings and geese during migrations.

It is also where I played my first nine holes of golf.

Right before teeing off my father said to me, "Whatever you do, if you are going to hit a good shot, do it here at the first tee... Don't embarrass me."

210 yards just past the little bunker on the left corner of the fairway. Everyone clapped and cheered in the 6 groups waiting to tee off behind us.

I topped shot #2...

Ahhhh... memories...  

lol I've played a few rounds out there.
The first 3 holes are pretty good from what I remember . . .

-Ted

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2007, 11:28:16 AM »
The New Course at Grand Cypress......

Good call!  It's tantamount to gca heresy, treason or some other indictable offense.

Mine is Shadow Creek.

I'll have the two of you note that Geoff Shackelford enjoyed The New Course At Grand Cypress when he visited there about 5 or 6 years ago. (maybe longer) So your both in good company; which could also mean that your in bad company too! ;)

About Shadow Creek. Well, there is nothing wrong at all for enjoying Shadow Creek. It's a beautiful place, masterfully engineered and worthy of the praise it recieves for it's standing of building something out of nothing. Architecturally, I think it accomplished something that not many architects have every accomplished, nor have strived to, and that is the feel. For example, take #5. When you step on that hole it has you instantly thinking of #5 at Pine Valley, only the hole is nothing like #5 at Pine Valley, but it evokes the emotion of standing on the tee at the 5th at Pine Valley.

Fazio, and Wynn for that matter, should be saluted for accomplishing this. He also does it at several other spots around the golf course and it's just as effective. But the negative--at least the negative I've always found with Shadow Creek, as well with most Fazio courses is the repetition. Certainly that has to stand for something, and in this case that's always been the negative about Shadow Creek, as well as the rest of Fazio's designs. It's like not going all of the way--as far as he got you going there.

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2007, 11:34:21 AM »
The New Course at Grand Cypress should by no means be a secret shame course. It's a tremendous amount of fun

We just did First Reconcilliation with my daughters - why does this feel just like that!!

Here are a few:

Two on the north side of Orlando PB Dye's Black Bear & Fazio's Legacy @ Alaqua Lakes
Almost everying I've played on the RTJ Trail
Pelican Hill South - (Tommy I am sorry if that offends you please give me my penance)

« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 11:35:35 AM by john_foley »
Integrity in the moment of choice

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2007, 11:36:08 AM »
The only bad aspect to the new course is the routing. Otherwise, I wondered how JN could've built a place like that and then for the next 20 years ignored all the principles inherent in it.

As for Shadow Creek, Mark Brenneman has directed some changes over the years. Each would be considered an improvement by many on this board. i.e. Expanded chipping areas

On another thread rchestnut made the comment that SC was not designed to be walked. I believe he is incorrect, as Mark walks every round.

My secret shame is almost any Chicago Park district course. Waveland and Jackson Park leading the way.
 


« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 11:37:59 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2007, 11:43:58 AM »
I can only think of two; both are home to me.

1. Hillandale, an ancient (pre-1920) public course in Durham, NC, now best known for its pro shop and Internet club business.  It is wide open, not very long even from the tips, and gets probably 70,000 rounds a year.  But I grew up three blocks away, hunted golf balls in the creek, and rode sleds on the course when it snowed.  My wife grew up a little closer still; we've known each other since we were 12 (now 55!) and our parents still live in the same houses.  When I'm at Hillandale, I'm young again and all is right with the world, and that world seems more simple somehow.

2. My home course now in GA, Alpharetta CC.  It is only 6100 yds. from the tips, and there isn't a single hole that will ever be pictured anywhere.  The list of what the course lacks far exceeds its attributes.  It is really tight, with really small greens, and it makes you a better player to play it; by the end of a round, I've almost always hit every club in my bag.  I've been a member for a long time now, and have a lot of buddies there.  It is, generally the least pretentious private club I know of, and after well over 1000 rounds, I never get tired of the place.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2007, 11:54:55 AM »
Jay, I enjoyed CD as well.  I thought it was great fun and except for a few holes on the back nine was pretty good.  The "floating green" was at 175  yards and even enjoyed the boat ride to the hole.  I don't need to play it again, however.
Count me as one who thinks the New Course at GC is decent.  I thought Twisted Dunes was very good, especially given budget and the site on which it was built.

I really don't have a secret shame. I do have some that some on this site would decry.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2007, 12:58:00 PM »
Most of you folks live in a higher realm than I. I play and enjoy courses on a regular basis that would likely make many of you suffer palpitations of shame. You should all likely go wash your hands after reading this post. Ashamed to play or enjoy Twisted Dunes or Shadow Creek? My my.........

I will take it upon myself to speak for the architecturally bereft.

Evergreen Golf Course  -  a Denver municipal course, even though it is not in Denver, proper. It is a mountain course. Short holes (a downhill 275 yard par 4 anyone?), tiny greens, blind shots, very few bunkers, some holes so indifferent that you can feel them shrugging as you play them. And I love it. I so fully enjoy playing there that just typing this is making me wish that it was warm enough to drive up there for a round. Two holes of note, to cause spasms of architectural shame/delight (not sure of hole numbers, as I think they've switched them around a bit):

There is a par three where you have to blindly hit directly over a rock outcropping, with a white arrow helpfully painted on it to give you a notion of where to go. The group ahead will ring a huge metal triangle when they're done. Every time I ring it, I expect a bunch of cowboys to suddenly show up wanting dinner. The green is flat, circular...not much to it, but it feels good to walk around the rocks and see your ball on it.

My favorite hole used to be the 18th, may be the 9th now - it's perched on a mountainside rolling down from left to right. The left side of the fairway buts up against a ponderosa pine forest, while the right side had to be built up to create some flat ground. The bit of created hillside where the fairway was built up goes almost straight down and is covered in thick, impenetrable grass. Total death to be in it. Difficult, if not impossible, to find or hit a ball that ends up there. If you go further right than that you get the joy of watching your ball just roll down that mountainside across the fairway of a hole below, leaving you with a recovery shot of Herculean proportions. The tee shot is angled such that you have to hit your drive directly at the trees and hope that you didn't aim too far left (and are thus in the forest) or too far right and are thus in the long grass or down at the bottom of the hill. And did I mention that the fairway is narrow? Any long hitter would go right for the green, in fact you might not have to be THAT long, but if you do go for it you must be prepared for what a miss will bring. Any time I get a drive on that fairway I really feel like I've accomplished something.

Damn you, wintertime, for making it impossible for me to head up there right now..........The photo below is actually of what is now the first hole, but the old 18th is barely visible up at the top of the hill, the tee is just behind that copse of trees.........

"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Steve Verde

Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2007, 02:04:04 PM »
Bay Harbor
Coeur d'Alene
Bear Mountain

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2007, 02:04:41 PM »
Eric,
Regarding Twisred Dunes, I actually really like the course, but I've seen it ripped here a few times. I think they don't like the amount of dirt that was moved to create the dunes, or something. I think it's cool, but assumed experts know better than me ;D


J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2007, 02:15:39 PM »
Bellerive, Medinah 3, Old Head of Kinsale; Fun to play but hardly architectural greats!

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2007, 03:37:43 PM »
... followed me with the largest slice ever seen then or since.

He took out a window in a house across the inlet!

By the way Gene, did they ever put in the long-rumored back nine?

Could have been my house!

My father was an old Navy man who fought in the Pacific in WW2. Always had boats on the dock in our yard which you would see as you played the first hole.

One day he found his 32' Luhrs had a hole in the front window with a golf ball in the cabin!!! Cost him a bundle to repair.

Tell your brother to send the check to....;)

No new back nine. Played it for the first time in 25 years last year. However, they have built some sort of park/vista point by the third green which is accessed by another entry.

Believe the original archy back in the 60's was Cirba's favorite, Mitchell. ;)
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Jay Flemma

Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2007, 06:12:52 PM »
I'll take a shot:

1) Twisted Dunes, NJ. Links style. Qualified for my first MGA event here!

2) Troon North. My first desert course.

3) Old Head. Thought it was great, until I found this website and learned it was just a "dumb blonde" not a classic beauty :(

I hear ya about twisted and Troon North (Pinnacle).  Yes they are prettier then they are intelectual...twisted used to be a good value years back, but they just can't keep a reasonable price point.  Troon at least is a bargain in high summer.  I've played there before for $75...

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2007, 07:30:35 PM »
Steve Verde:

Is Bear Mountain the course near Lake Chelan..?




Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2007, 07:37:33 PM »
Mountain House GC (CA). Cargo nets -some of which encroach on your preferred tee shot line- on 3 tee boxes, blind approach shots, overly steep (cart required) terrain, 240 yard uphill carry to an upwind (frequently 20+ miles per hour) fairway from the tips (only 6,200 yards), with some rediculously tough green features sprinkled about -- especially on the par 3s.

...And yet evey hole is a memorable, destinctive, 1/2-shot opportunity/menace. A great match play kind of course. Scorecard golfers beware. Architectural buffs (e.g. anyone reading this) forgive.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

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