[Jim Nugent]

Ulrich, two points:

1.  I don't see why it's either/or between golf and people.  AZ has grown at 3 times the national average since 1990.  Water is still abundant and cheap.  You assume there is not enough water for golf and people, and we must choose between them.   Pricing and demographics say you are wrong.

2.  You originally said each course uses as much water as 50,000 people.  Based on the figures in your last post, you're down to 2500.  95% less.  Demonstrating again the dangers of using Wikipedia as an authoritative source.  

And Wiki probably overstated the real numbers by much more than even that.  Wiki says the typical Midwestern course uses as much as 50,000 residents.  Correct me if I'm wrong: my guess is that desert courses use a lot more water than Midwestern ones.  Say your 10 million gallon figure for traditional courses is right.  That's 1/14th as much as AZ courses.  i.e. those courses use as much water as about 180 people.  Wikipedia's claim was 277 times too high in this case.  

Any way you cut it, that 50,000 figure is bizarrely, grossly exaggerated.  Not unusual for many "facts" the environmentalists like to throw around.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

You can rate courses anyway you want. Ditto for me and anyone else for that matter.

I simply questioned you on YOUR posted statement that no more than 30 "9" level courses exist in the world. I simply retorted that I don't have a set number of courses at any level because it is rather too fluid for anyone to say that with absolute certainty.

Couple of other points -- "Confidential Guide" originally came out years ago. However many courses achieved a certain ratng number AT THAT TIME doesn't mean to say that same number still applies -- it might, it also be lower or higher. I would think you would admit no less as much and if my memory serves you've admitted no less here on this site.

You also made it a point to illuminate the general shortcomings of desert golf in CG and what it's lacking when compared to other sites throughout the globe. Fair enough. I simply opined that unless you have since changed / modified you original assessment of desert golf that I personally believe the elite offerings that have come forward most recently are far beyond the "either or" ones that have far too often been IDed as the base formula for all desert golf.

You say a "9" rating is ridiculous for Desert Forest. Really? I see it very different than you and I have played the course a few times over the years. So be it. No doubt we simply disagree about how high the course is seen by me and others -- no doubt you still see the course as a top tier layout worthy of playing if the opportunity is there. Keep in mind you make the presumption that I rated the DF as a 6-7 in my first visit. Frankly, I saw the course as an 8 and with the improvements have bumped it one step.

Tom, I never questioned your golfing eye -- I just questioned your wherewithal to keep up to date with the sheer array of courses that have opened -- changed or upgraded themselves. I also simply stated a point that not all courses you reviewed in CG were actually played by you. I don't doubt your substanial acumen in being able to eye-ball courses and apply a rating number to them. I would think you might be a bit more open to the possibility that the golfing eyes of others who are well traveled and try to stay as current as much as possible could very well be able to offer no less in terms of their understanding on what quality golf is about. That's all.

[Philippe Binette]

I've never been to Shadow Creek, but I would never consider a course (designed by anybody) that negates the surrounding landscape as a great course...

So a course in a forested area must use lots of trees or never be considered a great course? Correct!

copy from Doug Ralston

Doug:
What I'm saying is that the landscape and the golf course should make one... If you have a course in a forested area, don't plant cactus,
or as I've seen more often, if all the trees in that forest are deciduous, don't plant pine trees and leaves pine needles on the ground so it look like augusta...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think Desert forest is the nearest thing to world class in the desert. However it is not a world top 20 or near that level. The green complexes of Dersert Forest on a pieces of land such as Tommy showed bulldozed combined with a solid routing would have the bones of a contender though.

[Ulrich Mayring]

2.  You originally said each course uses as much water as 50,000 people

Nope, au contraire. I didn't state any numbers, rather I asked for them. I posted the excerpt from Wikipedia to get the discussion going, hoping that someone would try to disprove their numbers (they seemed a bit high to me as well).

I am far from being an expert in this, just trying to learn. But it seems fairly obvious to me that for one desert course you could irrigate 15 courses elsewhere. This would fall under most people's definition of "waste".

That notwithstanding, there are obviously bigger fish to fry than golf courses. Such as why Americans are using so much more water than everyone else?

Ulrich

[JESII]

I'd be curious to hear arguments against the sandbelt of Melbourne, Australia being a desert...

[Jason McNamara]

Melbourne gets ~ 2.5x the annual rainfall Phoenix gets.  Moreover, Melbourne rainfall is more evenly distributed throughout the year.
On a Koeppen map it's an entirely different classification.

[Jim Nugent]

2.  You originally said each course uses as much water as 50,000 people

Nope, au contraire. I didn't state any numbers, rather I asked for them. I posted the excerpt from Wikipedia to get the discussion going, hoping that someone would try to disprove their numbers (they seemed a bit high to me as well).

I am far from being an expert in this, just trying to learn. But it seems fairly obvious to me that for one desert course you could irrigate 15 courses elsewhere. This would fall under most people's definition of "waste".

That notwithstanding, there are obviously bigger fish to fry than golf courses. Such as why Americans are using so much more water than everyone else?

Ulrich

Nice technique.  Offer up a bunch of alarmist numbers, and then disavow them after the fact.  Clintonesque.  

You haven't shown why some courses using more water than others is waste.  

Why shouldn't Americans use more water than anyone else?  

We're getting pretty far afield of GCA.  

[Dave Givnish]

Andy -

Why do you think we need the width at DF?  Most of the fairways are 25+ yards wide.  Lawrence did a great job routing the course through the lay of the land. The desert is an integral part of the course -- no different than the trees of an eastern parkland course.  Hit it in play off the tee and you can score.  Otherwise, you're going to be challenged.  

When was the last time you played it?  You should try it again if you haven't played here in a few years.

Dave G

[Andy Troeger]

Dave,
I played it this year. My frustration was that anything off the fairways was basically dead/gone, which is not at all the case on most parkland courses. Was I just unlucky or is that pretty normal? The desert is in play in most Arizona courses as well as those in New Mexico and most of them have the same problem in terms of lost balls and unplayable shots 80% of the time that the ball goes in there, but many offer twice the room between the desert as Desert Forest (thinking Saguaro and others) to at least make it a less frequent occurrence.

Desert Forest is very difficult and I could tell the staff and members were very proud of that fact when I visited. The areas in between the desert are well done, but there's not enough of it IMO.

[Tom Yost]

...In other words, a golf course in the desert uses 15 times as much water as a course elsewhere and that is a considerable waste.

I suppose it could be considered wasteful, were there a shortage of water for other more important needs.

Water doesn't just go away does it?  It is continually recycled by the process of evaporation and rainfall.

Despite the fact Phoenix is in a desert, it lies at the base of a huge mountain watershed.  Consider that the early growth of Phoenix was driven by agriculture and in the early 20th century, a series of 6 dams were built to create an enormous amount of storage.  Add to that, the Central Arizona Project built in the 80's delivers Colorado river water to Phoenix and Tucson.  As the city grew and displaced the citrus orchards and cotton fields, the water use has gradually diverted to residential.  Perhaps Mike L. can chime in on the amount of storage the SRP reserviors can hold and what the current split is between agricultural and residental water use.

If water is not used, where does it go?  It runs down the river to the Gulf of Mexico.  That would seem to be a waste.

Anyway, I'm not saying we shouldn't conserve. And I'm not saying water for golf courses should have priority over residential needs.  But I'm just pointing out that not all desert areas have the same considerations when it comes to water use and building golf courses in the desert is not necessarily irresponsible.


Tom

[JESII]

Melbourne gets ~ 2.5x the annual rainfall Phoenix gets.  Moreover, Melbourne rainfall is more evenly distributed throughout the year.
On a Koeppen map it's an entirely different classification.

How many different classifications are there? Where would Phoenix and Melbourne fall on the list?

Would you agree that Royal Melbourne is the "World Class Course" built in the most arid climate?

[tlavin]

This topic does beg the question of whether there is anything in the desert that would be entitled to this designation.  Desert Forest is the only name that keeps getting mentioned.  Perhaps the cactus golfers can give us a list of ten, just ten, courses that would get a 7 or higher on the Doak scale.

[Dave Givnish]

Andy -

I'd love to say that I never had a problem with the desert, but if you look at my irons, you'd know that I was lying.  I think that you were probably unlucky.  The number of unplayable lies is way down in my opinion in the last few years.  

Should the conversation about world class courses being built in the desert segue to a conversation about whether a world class course can be built as part of a real estate development?  Most of the courses built in Arizona over the last fifteen years had to be designed to fit in the most lots and to appeal to the "average" golfer.  I think that you end up with courses that look great but play easy, or have a fundamental design flaw like they're impossible to play without a cart.

[Andy Troeger]

This topic does beg the question of whether there is anything in the desert that would be entitled to this designation.  Desert Forest is the only name that keeps getting mentioned.  Perhaps the cactus golfers can give us a list of ten, just ten, courses that would get a 7 or higher on the Doak scale.

I can't give ten from what I've played but there are some...

Black Mesa to me is a strong 8.
We Ko Pa Saguaro and Seven Canyons I'd give 7's.
Desert Forest by consensus should be included even if I don't really agree.

I'd have to look at the scale again, but The Estancia Club and Pinon Hills would be borderline in the 6/7 range for me.

Courses like Paa-Ko Ridge and Forest Highlands would go 8 for me and The Rim and Chapparal Pines 7 but I don't really think any are desert courses. Seven Canyons is somewhat borderline with that distinction.

If you were to count that as 6 courses I would bet there are 4 that I haven't seen that manage a 7.

[Ken Moum]

I can't give ten from what I've played but there are some...

Black Mesa to me is a strong 8.
We Ko Pa Saguaro and Seven Canyons I'd give 7's.
Desert Forest by consensus should be included even if I don't really agree.

I'd have to look at the scale again, but The Estancia Club and Pinon Hills would be borderline in the 6/7 range for me.

Courses like Paa-Ko Ridge and Forest Highlands would go 8 for me and The Rim and Chapparal Pines 7 but I don't really think any are desert courses. Seven Canyons is somewhat borderline with that distinction.

If you were to count that as 6 courses I would bet there are 4 that I haven't seen that manage a 7.

Given my lack of exposure to highly ranked courses, I need help setting my measuring stick.

What about Longbow by Kavanaugh... have you played it?

And if so, what kind of rating would you give it?

It's only a couple mile from my mother's house, and I have played it a number of times. At first, I liked the fact that it wasn't condo canyon, but the more I have played it, the more it grows on me. The biggest revelation was that I need to look for more shots on the ground to score well.

I know Kavanaugh can do work that's praised here, what about Longbow.

I would note that I think I liked it better before they changed the routing.

Ken

[Andy Troeger]

I haven't played Longbow...but that reminds me...

Vista Verde and Gold Canyon Dinosaur Mountain (both Kavanaugh designs) would both go in the same category for me as Pinon Hills. Borderline 6/7 range. I'd like to play Longbow...too many dang golf courses down there!  

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

C'mon -- Paa-Ko Ridge is not a desert course -- check out it's location. Ditto Forrest Highlands in Flagstaff. Ditto Chapparal Pines in Payson.

If one has to include courses I have played that I would rate a 7 or better I'd include the following ...

Desert Forest
Whisper Rock *original 18 by Mickelson & Stephenson
Desert Mtn *Chirichua
Desert Mtn *Outlaw
Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV
Black Mesa
Silverleaf *very unheralded layout from Weiskopf
Vista Verde *solid effort from K Kavanaugh

I'd have to think of a few others as time is short right now.

Some people may laugh at my inclusion of Wolf Creek but when you see all the fanfare tied to the "creation" of Shadow Creek I believe Wolf Creek goes a bit beyond what you see there.

[Andy Troeger]

Gents:

C'mon -- Paa-Ko Ridge is not a desert course -- check out it's location. Ditto Forrest Highlands in Flagstaff. Ditto Chapparal Pines in Payson.

Matt,
Did you read what I wrote? I said that I don't think any of those are desert courses.

[Mike Mosely]

First off, I'd have to wonder if the mantle of a "world class" course equates to a 9 on the Doak scale -- of which there are only about 30 in the world.  Most people would say at least the top 100 in the world qualified as "world class."

There are a handful of desert courses which might rate an 8 on the Doak scale.  But there aren't any which I would rate a 9, including my own.

The award of a 9 to Desert Forest is ridiculous.  I like Desert Forest, and it is different than all of the other desert courses because of its vintage and viewpoint.  It's got something more like the traditional green tilt and bunkering of a parkland course.  But it is NOT, NOT in the same league in those aspects as Winged Foot West (which is a 9 on the Doak scale), and the desert setting doesn't add anything to its review, any more than it subtracts.  I think I rated Desert Forest a 6, and in a more generous mood I could see a 7, but no more.

I think it is possible to build a 10 in the desert but I don't know if anyone ever will.  What separates the 10's from the rest is that they are UNIQUE in their character, and the underlying problem for desert courses is that it's hard to make them not look like all the other desert courses.  (The same goes for parkland courses by the way, that's one reason why Winged Foot West is a 9 and not a 10.)

Tom, I'm not sure if that's true...Apache Stronghold doesn't look like anything else...Blackstone sure doesn't look like everything else...neither does we-ko-pa or The Boulders...they are not all merely surrounded by saguaros...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does Shadow Creek qualify as a desert course?  

YES, it does.

And Tom Doak assigned it a "9"[/color]

Arguably, if you have an unlimited budget (as Tom Fazio had there), it's possible to transform a desert into just about whatever you want it to be.

I'm not so sure of that.
I don't believe that anyone had an unlimited budget, and,
money is useless if you don't have the water rights.[/color]  

But for me, a great golf course has to be a natural part of the land, not forced on the land.

Then, by your definition and criterion, NO golf course in the desert would qualify, as they're all unnatural and forced onto the land.[/color]

I played SC for the first time yesterday, and like the Strip itself, the course left me with a sense of awe about the scale of what had been accomplished there in the middle of the desert, but left me cold emotionally.  No soul.  

I don't know what "no soul" means, perhaps you could define it.

It's not as if you were expecting to play from sand tees, onto sand fairways, onto sand greens.

Shadow Creek is the product of a visionary, Steve Wynn.
It's his OASIS is the desert.  His PRIVATE residence and golf club.  And, he succeeded, marvelously, in creating a wonderful golf course in the midst of a flash flood plain in the middle of the desert in Southern Nevada.[/color]

Fake waterfalls.

Everything is fake.
You don't think that those ribbons of green grass grow naturally in the desert do you ?  [/color]

Caddies that didn't carry bags, but rode on the back of your golf cart.  

If you didn't walk, why should your caddy have to tote a bag and walk in the desert ?[/color]

Pine trees that looked like they belonged in North Carolina.  

What kind of Pine Trees were they ?
And, what part of North Carolina did they look like they belonged in ?

Pines are found from as far North as Canada all the way down to the Equator.

Why did the pines at Shadow Creek look like they belonged in North Carolina ?[/color]

But I know I'm probably in the minority on this one...the course seems to show up near the top of a lot of Top 100 lists.

I believe it debuted at # 8 on Golf Digest's list and Tom Doak gave it a "9" in "The Confidential Guide".   That seems like high praise from two independent sources.

As the golf course nears its 20th anniversary, perhaps some tree management should be considered.[/color]

[CHrisB]

Matt Ward,
What about Stone Canyon in Oro Valley? It is no Black Mesa, but I was more impressed with it than I was even with Silverleaf (which was also very good).

[Jason McNamara]

How many different classifications are there? Where would Phoenix and Melbourne fall on the list?

Five (oversimplified) classifications:  
A - tropical (hot year-round, and seasonal or year-round rain.)
B - arid (evapotranspiration > precip)
C - temperate (warm to hot summers, mild winters, moderation to significant precip)
D - continental (mild to warm summers, cold winters)
E - polar

It's rather a lot to go into here, but basically, Phoenix is in the arid classification.  Its designation is the hottest and driest possible - BWh (which admittedly makes more sense if you speak German).... B / Wueste (= desert) / heiss

Melbourne is in the temperate classification, Oceanic subdivision.  It would be in the Mediterranean subdivision, except the rain there is not seasonal as it is in L.A., Cape Town, Adelaide, and the Algarve.

The wiki page for all this is here:
http://tinyurl.com/yobyyf

Would you agree that Royal Melbourne is the "World Class Course" built in the most arid climate?

I apologize in advance for getting semantic on you, but it depends how you define things.  If Royal Adelaide is world class, that's a somewhat more arid climate.  And I am not sufficiently familiar with L.A. microclimes to judge aridity, but I can tell you that Riviera probably gets 30% less rain than Royal Melbourne.

[Jason McNamara]

Does Shadow Creek qualify as a desert course?  

YES, it does.

[...]

Shadow Creek is the product of a visionary, Steve Wynn.
It's his OASIS is the desert.  

Do you mean to say that an architect can build a world class course in the desert, as long as he builds the oasis first?

[Eric_Terhorst]

I would add Talking Stick North to the list of desert courses that are at least a "7"

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